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Equality Bill [HL]

moved Amendment No. 25:"Page 58, line 30, at end insert—"    ““The power under section 18— (a)   shall be treated by virtue of this paragraph as having been delegated by the Commission to the Scotland Committee in so far as it concerns the making of grants for the purpose of exercising any of the powers treated as delegated to the Scotland Committee in accordance with paragraphs 21 and 22, and (b)   to that extent shall not be exercisable by the Commission.”” The noble Baroness said: In speaking to Amendment No. 25, I shall speak also to Amendments Nos. 26, 31, 32 and 38. I greatly welcome the devolution provided in the Bill to the Scotland and Wales committees and hope that these amendments will give Scotland and Wales even more devolution. The commission can choose to delegate any of its functions to any decision-making committee as set out in paragraph 15 of Schedule 1, and this includes the Scotland and Wales committees. However, the Bill specifies delegation of certain powers to the Scotland and Wales committees, and these delegations cannot be reversed by the commission. However, in the Bill, only some of the promotional powers are delegated to the Scotland and Wales committees. Paragraph 21 of Schedule 1, which refers to Scotland, and paragraph 29, which refers to Wales, delegate the powers under Clause 14 to publish information, undertake research, provide education and training and give advice or guidance. The power to subcontract such work to other people or organisations is included in the delegation. However, the power under Clause 18 to award grants to other organisations to do or assist in any of the delegated functions is at present excluded from the delegation to the Scotland and Wales committees. The CEHR will probably rely heavily on co-operation and joint working with others. It is very likely that the commission will want to provide grant aid to voluntary organisations to assist with its promotional work under Clause 14. Most of the voluntary sector in Wales and Scotland is separate and independent. It is inconsistent to delegate to the Wales and Scotland committees the power to subcontract delegated Clause 14 work to such other organisations but not to delegate the powers to give grants to carry out delegated Clause 14 work. Amendments Nos. 25 and 31 delegate grant-giving powers under Clause 18 to Scotland and Wales committees but only in so far as the grant-giving is for the purpose of carrying out the other powers already delegated to the committees. Thus the amendments would not affect the power of the commission at GB level to control grants for any purpose that is not already delegated to the Scotland and Wales committees under the Bill. The powers under Clause 21 include monitoring kinds of crime affecting certain communities, prevention and reduction of crime affecting certain communities and activities designed to involve members of communities. These powers are intended to support the commission’s duty under Clause 11 to encourage understanding and good practice in relations between communities and to work towards the elimination of prejudice, hatred and hostility against communities. ““Communities”” in Clause 11 means ““equality communities””—that is, communities of people defined by their age, gender, transsexual status, race, religion or belief, or sexual orientation. The powers in Clause 21(2)(a) and (b) to monitor crime and take action designed to prevent and reduce crime will be used to address types of crime affecting specific equality communities—for example, racist, sectarian, Islamophobic and homophobic hate crimes such as assault, vandalism and harassment. The power to arrange community activities which Clause 21(2)(c) gives to the commission will support its duty to encourage good inter-community relations. The nature of crime which affects communities, in particular hate crime, varies in different parts of the UK. The same is true for the other problems affecting community relations. It is vital, therefore, that the   commission’s powers are exercised with a full understanding of the nature of the different problems in Scotland and Wales. The commission will usually be exercising the Clause   21 powers in co-operation with other bodies; for example, the police, local authorities and voluntary sector bodies. The public bodies concerned are devolved in Scotland and Wales and operate under a different statutory framework. They have different statutory equality obligations under the Scottish Parliament’s pubic sector legislation and under the Government of Wales Act. Most voluntary organisations in Scotland and Wales are separate, and the umbrella organisations for the voluntary sector are specific to Scotland and Wales. In Scotland, the criminal justice system, criminal law and criminal procedure are devolved to the Scottish Parliament and Executive. They are all very different in Scotland. Race hate crime, in particular, and other hate crime law, which is of particular relevance to Clause 21, are very different in Scotland from that in the rest of Britain. The prosecution and courts systems operate in a very different way from the rest of Britain, and the police are separate and devolved. Although criminal law in Wales is not devolved to the Welsh Assembly, Welsh police and local authorities will be key partners of the commission in addressing hate crime, both through the criminal justice measures and other means such as ASBOs. For all these reasons, the powers under Clause 21(2)(a) and (b) to monitor, prevent and reduce crimes should be delegated to the Scotland and Wales Committees, since those committees, rather than the commission at British level, would have the required expertise on criminal law, criminal justice and the nature of crime affecting communities in Scotland and Wales, as well as links with other agencies. The ““communities”” powers, which are sometimes referred to as ““good relations”” powers, are new for most strands. The powers do not relate to employment or provision of services, but to the way people live together. They are designed to reduce hate crime and conflict between different groups based on their identity and to promote harmonious communities. These are promotional powers rather than enforcement powers. The other promotional powers are being delegated to the Wales and Scotland Committees. The communities to whom they apply are likely to be different in England, Wales and Scotland. In England, much of the focus is likely to be on places where there are very large, impoverished and disenfranchised ethnic communities, where problems manifest themselves perhaps through excessive violence on the streets, major police interventions, and a lot of media and political attention. The problems in Wales may be different; for example, rural racism or homophobia, where numbers are small. They may involve victimisation, isolation, social exclusion and may not attract media and political attention in the same way. There may be a danger of these issues, as they manifest themselves in Wales and Scotland, being overlooked if priority decisions in relation to the ““communities”” powers are not delegated. I hope the Minister understands that explanation. I am trying to describe all the differences between England, Wales and Scotland. We are not just mirror images of each other. That is the point that I am trying to make. I turn to Amendment No. 38, which calls for full-time posts. At present, the Commission for Racial Equality, the Disability Rights Commission and the Equal Opportunities Commission each has a commissioner for Scotland and a commissioner for Wales. Although these are not full-time posts, all six commissioners devote a great deal of time to their commission. The Bill proposes that the Commission for Equality and Human Rights will have a single Scotland commissioner and a single Wales commissioner. This is one of the areas of greatest concern for stakeholders in Scotland and Wales. I asked the Minister a question about it at Second Reading and she answered that she believed that the commission would decide that. There is a real fear that the Wales and the Scotland commissioners will simply be overloaded with work in setting up the new bodies if they were just part-time appointments involving perhaps two or three days a month. The roles are so important that the Scottish and Welsh commissioners should be full-time appointments. Even then, the two commissioners will rely heavily on the other members of their countries’ committees. I hope   that the Minister will take note of this. The commissioners should be able to devote at least 200 working days to the commission. I move the amendments in a spirit of devolution. We   recognise that the Government have given us devolution in Scotland and Wales, as well as in this Bill, but, as usual, we would like a little bit more. The amendments are seeking this in the best interests of the Welsh and Scottish people. I beg to move.