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Terrorism Bill

I am aware that it is extremely unwise for Members of your Lordships’ House who are not legally qualified to get entangled in this debate because we all know that those with legal training have acquired all sorts of knowledge and skills way beyond those of us who have merely qualified in economics or science. I find the arguments that we have heard expressed in respect of Clause 21 very difficult to follow. For example, I find it very hard to understand that the conduct of Plaid Cymru could be such that people,"““could reasonably be expected to infer that what is being glorified, is . . . conduct that should be emulated in existing circumstances””." A description of what happened in the past, coupled with the fact that Plaid Cymru makes it clear that it is pursuing its ends through non-violent means, seems to me to make it very difficult for any reasonable inference that what is being glorified is conduct that should be emulated in existing circumstances. I find that argument rather difficult to follow. If the argument is that somehow the wording is not as precise as it might be—something that we have already debated at great length in the Chamber, and no doubt will refer to again before the Bill passes—that might be a legitimate approach. But simply to strike out the clause from the Bill seems to be taking the argument somewhat far. No doubt we would all agree that the principle of proscribing organisations engaged in terrorism is the right one. No doubt we would all agree—I hope we would—that those organisations which seek to facilitate the creation of funds for terrorism ought to be proscribed. Why then should we be so reluctant to proscribe organisations which are trying to procure a flow of individuals to take part in terrorism, as somehow being organisations that should continue to exist? It seems to me that the clause is trying to deal with those organisations which, because of what they say about terrorism and about those who engage terrorism, are encouraging young people, or maybe old people—all sorts of people—to engage in terrorism. Surely, that is exactly on a par with those seeking to facilitate the flow of funds toward terrorism.