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Terrorism Bill

I can be telegraphic about our position. We agree with the Government to this extent; that, if the Bill changes the law, it will be necessary for the Government to reconsider the current rules about proscribed organisations. It is very rare that the Opposition do not support an amendment tabled by the noble and learned Lord, Lord Lloyd; and we owe him an explanation as to why we do not do so this time. We oppose the notion of glorification and therefore three-quarters of the text of Clause 21; but we agree with the Government that there should be an offence of indirect encouragement. However, that is only as long as it is tightly defined, or at least defined in such a way that it is clear to someone about to make an encouraging statement what they are in for. In other words, that it would be compliant with Article 7 of the European Convention on Human Rights. That is why, as an alternative to the proposal tabled by the noble and learned Lord, Lord Lloyd, to expunge Clause 21 entirely from the Bill, we prefer our Amendment No. 114, which provides a taut but, we believe, effective definition of the offence of ““indirect encouragement””. These amendments were tabled before the Joint Committee on Human Rights published its report. Some noble Lords may be alarmed to learn that the policy laid down in our amendments is endorsed completely by the committee’s report. I simply draw the attention of the Minister to two paragraphs. The first is paragraph 63, from which I shall quote one sentence:"““In our view extending the grounds of proscription to cover organisations glorifying acts of terrorism is unlikely to be compatible with the right to freedom of expression in Article 10 ECHR or the right to freedom of association in Article 11 ECHR for the same reasons as those given in relation””," to the definition of the offence of glorification of terrorism. The Minister might like to ponder those words in the context of the certification given to this Bill in your Lordships’ House. I also draw the attention of the noble Baroness to an earlier passage in the summary of the report from the Joint Committee on Human Rights set out on page 3. The first sentence of the section entitled ““Encouragement and glorification of terrorism”” reads:"““The Committee accepts, on balance, that the case has been made out by the Government that there is a need for a new, narrowly defined criminal offence of indirect incitement to terrorist acts””." So there we have it: an offence either of indirect incitement or of indirect encouragement to terrorist acts, yes; but not one based on the definition of glorification that the Government have in the Bill. I hope that, between now and the Report stage, the noble Baroness will consider very carefully both the definition of glorification in Clause 1 and the way in which it has been deployed in Clause 21, and comes up with something that reflects not only our view, but that of the Joint Committee on Human Rights.