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Terrorism Bill

I start by saying to the noble Lord, Lord Harris, and the noble Baroness, Lady Symons, that if an organisation promotes terrorism, it ought to be banned, and is already covered under Section 3 of the existing Act. If an organisation recruits young people with a view to their becoming terrorists, then of course it ought to be caught, and it already is caught. So there is no need to do anything about that situation, which I think was mostly concerning the noble Lord, Lord Harris, and the noble Baroness, Lady Symons. The problem that I have and I think perhaps others in the Committee have regards the organisation which is admittedly an extremist organisation but which does not advocate violence and has no intention of advocating violence, but which, according to the involved language of this provision, is to be deemed as promoting terrorism because it is guilty of something that is called unlawful glorification. For me, that is the sticking point. The noble Lord, Lord Kingsland, seemed sorrowful that he could not support the amendment. But he went on to say that he is in favour of an offence of indirect incitement, but not based on glorification. That is exactly my position. I am in favour of an offence of indirect incitement, as I made very clear in my Second Reading speech, but I am totally against the concept of unlawful glorification whether applied to individuals under Clause 1 or to organisations under Clause 21. If anything, it is worse in respect of organisations. The noble Baroness says, ““Perhaps that does not matter all that much because they can always apply to de-proscribe””; but in the mean time every member of that organisation has been guilty of a criminal offence. I do not regard that as a satisfactory solution. I do not regard this as a necessary provision. It is very difficult to understand, as I think we all accept. Therefore, although I seek leave to withdraw the amendment at this stage, I shall certainly want to bring it back.