---

Terrorism Bill

I am grateful to the noble Lord for his indication that he understands and, indeed, agrees with the import of Clause 22 in as much as it enables us to identify an organisation which has a number of different names. I thank him for that acknowledgement. The organisation may cease to be known by one name. It may subsequently be discovered that the organisation has adopted another name, unknown prior to investigation into its activities. Clause 22 adds an important flexibility to the existing proscription regime. It entitles the Secretary of State to make an order certifying an organisation as being the same as one that is already proscribed. Normal appeal rights will apply, enabling organisations to raise the matter at the Proscribed Organisations Appeal Commission. That is an important addition of some degree of flexibility to the proscription regime. I give the noble Lord an example. Members of the Committee will remember that this was a provision which the noble Lord, Lord Carlile, described in his report as ““entirely practical and sensible”” in its current form. I respectfully agree with him, and I would not seek to alter it. The effect of this amendment would be to create uncertainty; but I understand that the noble Lord is raising the amendment only to allow us the opportunity to have this debate. The situation that one needs to consider is one in which a new organisation has sprung up from the ashes of one that was proscribed. It is not clear at this stage that the organisation is the same as the one that was proscribed, but in routine investigation of a common crime evidence emerges that proves that the organisation is indeed the same as one that was proscribed, and the identities of a number of members are revealed. At this stage, the police must act and arrest the members of the organisation in case a terrorist attack takes place. However, unless they are clearly entitled to argue independently in a court of law that the organisation is the same as the one that was proscribed, they cannot arrest those individuals, as there would be no basis on which to charge them. In order to charge, as no doubt noble Lords are aware, it is required that there is a reasonable chance of a conviction. Without the clear chance to argue that an organisation is indeed the same, the prosecution cannot consider that there is a reasonable chance of conviction, so the individuals will remain free and will probably flee the country before an order could be issued by the Secretary of State identifying the organisation as the same as one proscribed—so it is entirely practical. It is almost like a tracing that one would do in civil proceedings, where you would say, ““Here they are; I traced them over to the next circumstances and they are indeed the same people””. They cannot avoid detection simply by calling themselves by another name. This enables the prosecution, when the police obtain those facts, to act in a way that I am sure all noble Lords would wish them to. That is the reason why it is framed as it is. It has sufficient flexibility, but it allows people who should be caught to be caught.