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Terrorism Bill

Of course the noble Lord is right that this is a philosophical struggle; unfortunately, it has very real practical outcomes where we fail to protect people. It is on those outcomes that some Members of the Committee might focus a little more. Like many, I found the comparison with South Africa made by the noble and learned Lord, Lord Fraser, incomprehensible, but maybe enough has been said about that. Perhaps I can say something from a slightly different point of view—that of my experience as a Minister who, until May, had responsibilities for how we deal with counter-terrorism in our relationships overseas. I talked about the issues on the strategic basis with a number of governments but, on occasions, of course I had to discuss individuals who were a real concern to us in this country, maybe in their country of origin and very often in more than one country at a time. From my practical experience, I endorse what my noble friend Lady Ramsay of Cartvale and the noble Baroness, Lady Park of Monmouth, said. Let me say categorically to the noble and learned Lord, Lord Fraser, that this is not just a question of encryption. Of course the arguments around encryption are important but, from the point of view of dealing with the issue on a practical basis, we often deal with countries that have a very different perspective on their constitutional responsibilities. That is often the starting point of any discussion on what to do about individuals suspected of terrorism. The question is the sovereignty of that country—why we are going to talk about individuals who are their nationals, when they want to maintain their sovereign jurisdiction over them. We are also not just dealing with police-to-police or agency-to-agency discussions. When we deal with those countries, we often have to deal with a range of different politicians and ministries—obviously foreign ministries, interior ministries, and justice ministries. Often, we have to go round three different sets of political views before we manage to make any progress over an individual. Then we get into the issue of police jurisdictions. Practice varies between not only ourselves and the country in question, but a number of countries that have a mutual interest in an individual. Then there is the whole question of what is permissible evidence between those different jurisdictions, not to mention dealing with foreign lawyers. As I have learnt, it is sometimes a handful dealing with the lawyers in your Lordships’ House, let alone dealing with some foreign lawyers as well.