---

Terrorism Bill

I shall certainly do so, although it comes slightly out of turn. As the noble Lord may have heard, the noble and learned Lord, Lord Lloyd, considered whether it would be as well to leave the matter with district judges. I join the noble Baroness in saying that I have every respect for district judges. They do a magnificent job. For a long time, we called them stipendiary magistrates, and they are very able people. But we have a hierarchy in the judiciary in which it is thought by our society that those who become High Court judges have something above and beyond. However, I can think of dedicated district judges whose vocation it is to be district judges and they are superb. There is a greater degree of protection in going before a judge. Perhaps I may meld my answer into my next points because that is where the answer lies. It is not the case that there is no protection in having a senior judge look at the matter; it is a proper and right protection, but that does not fully answer the point. It is a safeguard. Mobile phone usage, the religious rights of detainees and the lack of defence solicitors are problems, but I believe that they are currently well covered by the 28-day provision. We have to form a judgment, but I do not think that those were the strongest points. Indeed, vis-à-vis mobile phones, I remember from our earlier debates that it is possible to get an answer from mobile phone companies almost within minutes. That is not one of the major problems. As another noble Lord said in this debate, the 90-day period is not the end of the matter—very often the investigations go on far longer. It is worth remembering that 23 people were kept in Belmarsh for up to three and a half years. It may have been thought that it was not worth prosecuting them but not one of them was prosecuted, despite the very much longer period of detention. In the context of the 90-day period, it is said that only a very small number of cases will be involved. The noble Lord, Lord Carlile of Berriew, who is not in his place—I am sure that he will read this debate—has said on different occasions that there would be two or three cases a year and, most recently, that there would be only one or two cases a year. That has to be balanced against what you do if you do not detain or arrest, which obviously puts a heavier burden on the security services. I listened carefully to my noble friend Lady Park, who said that it took 30 people—I am sure that she is right—to tail one person full time. I would much prefer to put in extra resources to have an additional 30, 60 or 300 people in the security services, if we can gather them. If the newspapers are remotely correct, I understand that they are recruiting, and rightly so. But we are talking about a small number of cases and whether we would really benefit from a 90-day period. The noble Lord, Lord Imbert, gave the vivid example of 15 people being arrested. How does that tie in with the view that there will be only one or two cases? Such difficult and controversial topics remind me of the old Victorian joke about a baby, in which it is said, ““Oh well, it was only a little one””, and you work up from there. You have to be very careful about making wrong judgments or they will take you down the wrong route. I end where I began. This matter requires very careful judgment. The Government are absolutely right to have listened carefully to the House of Commons and so are not seeking to alter the provision. We should lift this issue away from party politics. We should remember that there is a real downside to locking up too many people as well as the possible upside of holding a person for a bit longer. I very much hope that the Committee will agree to keep the position as it was left by the other place.