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Terrorism Bill

Perhaps I may intervene to give the views of Her Majesty’s Opposition. I hope that I can be brief because, after two hours and 40 minutes, we would all like to hear the Government’s views. I welcome the very measured tones with which the noble Baroness, Lady Ramsay, introduced this highly contentious amendment, which has aroused very strong feelings on all sides of the Committee, and different views on all sides, to the extent that at times the debate has not felt party-political, when we have seen splits in all parts of the Committee. Those measured tones with which the noble Baroness opened the debate did not last long. The noble Lord, Lord Davies of Coity, who I do not think is in his place, supplemented later by the noble Lord, Lord Foulkes, accused this party of political opportunism. I categorically deny that in the strongest possible terms. Her Majesty’s Opposition have co-operated with the Government as far as they could on many aspects of the Bill. We have made it quite clear that we will assist them to get the Bill on the statute book. If the noble Lord or any other noble Lord doubts that, they need only refer to my noble friend Lord Kingsland’s speech at Second Reading, when he made clear the Opposition’s viewpoint. Can the Minister confirm that as an Opposition we have co-operated with the Government and made it clear that we will assist them to get the Bill on to the statute book? However, having said that, we are entitled to disagree with her on certain aspects of it. I shall deal briefly with our various arguments against 90 days’ detention, a period up to 90 days or any extension beyond 28 days, as provided in the amendment tabled by the noble Baroness, Lady Ramsay of Cartvale. First, we believe that it is wrong in principle. It is equivalent to a six-month custodial sentence and tantamount to internment, even with the proposed judicial safeguards. Secondly, there are very strong arguments that the provision is contrary to Article 5(3) of the European Convention on Human Rights. Noble Lords have referred to the report of the noble Lord, Lord Carlile, and the fact that he offered support, with certain caveats, for extending the period to 90 days. But the noble Lord, Lord Carlile, said in his report:"““I question whether what is proposed in this Bill would be proof to challenge under the Human Rights Act given the length of extended detention envisaged””." The noble and learned Lord, Lord Steyn, has also stated that it would be in breach of Article 5(3). We understand that there have even been some doubts expressed by the Attorney-General. Perhaps the noble Baroness, Lady Scotland, can confirm that. Thirdly, I argued that it was wrong in principle. We believe that it is wrong in practice. As a great many Members of the Committee have made clear, this measure could very easily become the recruiting sergeant for terrorists. Even one case of an individual being detained for three months could cause further radicalisation within the community. We all ought to listen very carefully to what the noble Lord, Lord Condon, and others have said on that point. Fourthly, many of the problems that have been highlighted on mounting an adequate investigation into these problems, as was made clear by my noble friend Lord Hurd at Second Reading, could be dealt with by offering extra resources to the police. I am very grateful that that was re-emphasised by the noble Baroness, Lady Kennedy. Fifthly, as, I believe, the pressure group Liberty and others have suggested, there are various alternatives, such as amending bail or the PACE provisions, to get the accused back for post-charge questioning having imposed control-order style conditions on him. There are certainly avenues that can be pursued down that line. Finally, the Law Society has proposed an alternative of charging with lesser offences. We have not exhausted all the possibilities. There is no need to rush to 90 days. To summarise, the key argument against 90 days is that it is Parliament’s duty as the legislature—that is, both Houses—to temper the demands of various parts of the Executive and their agencies—in this case, the recommendations being made by the police—and not merely to accept their demands without question. Blind reliance on advice from any government agency is not a healthy way to legislate. The Government’s central argument was always that they were acting on police advice. But the issue of the balance between public security and the rights of individuals is an issue for Parliament and not the police. I shall end by quoting what my noble friend Lord Hurd said very firmly at Second Reading:"““Ministers should not suspend their own powers of judgment, or come to Parliament telling us that it is the view of the police or the agencies so we must accept it. Nor should the police urge Parliament to suspend its views or judgment, but that is what has been happening””.—[Official Report, 25/11/05; col. 1402.]"