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Terrorism Bill

I have listened with real care and attention to everything that has been said in one of the most extraordinary debates that we have had in this House for some considerable time. The speeches have been powerful and passionate. I have to tell Members of the Committee that I have not changed the view, on behalf of the Government, that I signalled at Second Reading. Before going into some of the details, it is right for me to respond to some of the specific questions raised in the debate. First, I shall deal with a question raised by my noble friend Lord Brooke about scrutiny. There was an all-party agreement in July to accelerate the timetable for this legislation. Members of the Committee will remember that we had just suffered the terrible incident of 7/7. We therefore thought that it was right quickly to bring forward legislation which made impossible the ordinary scrutiny that might otherwise have been contemplated. Nevertheless, in September, we published the Bill in draft and invited comments on it. A number of changes were made as a result. We will, of course, consider the report of the Home Affairs Committee when it is published. In response to the noble Lord, Lord Henley, it is right that the Government strove as hard as they could to seek consensus in relation to this Bill. It is quite clear that when it came to the 90-days provision, no consensus was possible. However, it is right, too, to say to Members of the Committee that my noble friends who have spoken so powerfully about the evidence base for the 90 days very much reflected the view that was held by the Government, which is still held by the Government, on the efficacy of 90 days. So I say to my noble friends Lady Ramsay, Lord Davies of Coity, Lord Stratford, Lord Lipsey, Lord Merlyn-Rees, Lady Symons of Vernham Dean, Lord Clinton-Davis, Lord Brooke and Lord Harris, and the noble Viscount, Lord Brookeborough, that I cannot dissent from the logic that they expand in their speeches. The Government remain of the view that 90 days—the time limit requested by the police—is the correct limit for pre-charge detentions. The police requested that period on the basis of their practical experience of the difficulties involved in charging under the current scheme. In accepting the evidence base, perhaps I may assure the noble Lord, Lord Henley, as I assured the noble Lord, Lord Hurd, that the Government did not suspend their own powers of judgment and substitute the police view for their own. A number of my noble friends have outlined why that is so, not least praying in aid the evidence of the independent reviewer, the noble Lord, Lord Carlile of Berriew. All noble Lords will have read the letter from Andy Hayman, the country’s most senior anti-terrorist police officer. They have the information he gave us in that regard, much of which was referred to during this debate. It explains the nature of the terrorist threat we face and the difficulties therein. But the Government also accept that Members of another place chose to amend the Bill so that it would create a pre-charge detention limit of 28 days. The Government have accepted that position as being the will of the other place. Therefore on behalf of the Government—noble Lords know that when I speak from this Dispatch Box, I speak as the Government—I cannot resile from that position. I say to my noble friends who are critical of that view and who petition strongly that the Government ask the other place to think again that we feel ourselves bound by the statement on the matter made by my right honourable friend to the other place. The elected House took its decision after a very full debate and on the basis of proper deliberation. Accordingly, the Government cannot now support this amendment. But noble Lords opposite should be left in no doubt that the Government’s view is that the period of 90 days was merited for all the reasons given. In response to my noble friend Lord Merlyn-Rees, the House has behaved today like the House of Lords. That is what many of us have come to expect and some to celebrate. However, what is important is that this House has made it clear that our original proposal was that there should be real scrutiny by the judiciary, in whom we place a great deal of trust. I shall deal with some of the other factual issues that have arisen. My noble friend Lady Kennedy of The Shaws mentioned that these applications would be made ex parte and persons would be excluded from the hearing. I hope my noble friend knows that that is not right.