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Terrorism Bill

My Lords, having participated in Committee when we discussed these issues, I join my noble friend Lord Plant—we are both Members of the Joint Committee on Human Rights—in saying how glad I am that the Minister fulfilled her undertaking to listen to what was said in those discussions in Committee and how warmly I welcome the inclusion of the concept of intent. Having said that, I hope my noble friend will forgive me if I make two observations because the context in which we discuss what is before us is as important on Report as it is at any other stage of the Bill. We are debating the Bill at a time when what is regarded as terrorism in the context of the Bill is recognised as contentious. The Government have appointed the noble Lord, Lord Carlile, to produce a report on what is terrorism and what the definition of terrorism should be. Therefore, we would do well in our deliberations to realise that we are moving forward with what should be done by the law about terrorism when we also recognise that there is a debate about what terrorism may, or may not, be. The noble Lord, Lord Goodhart, illustrated the point in what he said about Chechnya. To put it in layman’s language, the issue remains unresolved for many people and what may be seen as terrorism by one person may, in a particular context of oppression, be seen as freedom fighting or a liberation movement by somebody else. That is true not just in history; it is true today as well. I wish to make another observation: while I underline how much I welcome the Government’s move on intent, unlike my noble friend Lord Plant I still have a certain uneasiness on recklessness, about which I hope my noble friend will be able to reassure me. I am a layman; I am not a lawyer. Therefore, I am one of the people who must understand what is and what is not law. I am not one of the people who, with all the insight of lawyers’ expertise, are making the law. I would have thought that commonsense would tell us that sometimes somebody will do something in good faith that subsequently, when he is confronted by all the implications of what he has done, he might, in retrospect, agree was reckless, but was not consciously reckless at the time at which he did it. Therefore, I am uneasy about the concept of recklessness being used without any qualification whatever about the mental attitude, the state of mind and the state of knowledge of the person who committed the offence at the time that it was committed. I hope my noble friend will say something about this and that she may indicate some way in which this point could be made clearer for the layman and the potential culprit.