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Terrorism Bill

My Lords, there is no criticism of the noble Baroness for raising the matter: it is right that she should do so. I share this with the noble Baroness. I had not had sight of that letter, did not know of its content, and would not otherwise have been aware that that was a concern operating in the minds of the noble Baroness and others. It is right, therefore, that we have an opportunity to address that. Work was ongoing as to the nature of amendments, and when and if they should be laid, up until the time they were laid. I assure the House that we laid those amendments as swiftly as we were able bearing in mind the contemplation. Everything I said in Committee relating to the need to allow proper academic debate, proper learning, in our institutions stands. I repeat the assurances I gave to the noble Baroness, Lady Carnegy of Lour, that the department of St Andrews which specialises in teaching the nature of terrorism and its effects would not be improperly inhibited from so doing, and I repeat my assurances in relation to the libraries and the booksellers—although not verbatim because I am sure noble Lords do not wish to continue this debate for the six hours it would take me to go through all that I said before. So all that lays good. These amendments took on board the mischief which noble Lords had identified; the need to have proper debate maintained in our universities, which are of such high quality; the issues raised by my noble friend Lord Desai; and the issues also raised on our Benches by the noble Lord, Lord Parekh, and a number of others. I am very grateful for the endorsement given today by my noble friends Lord Plant and Lord Rea, because noble Lords know that they shared the anxieties of this House. We responded to their anxiety. I mentioned my noble friends Lord Eatwell and Lady Warwick too in relation to those issues. Their concerns galvanised us to think how better we could respond. I make it clear it that we do not suggest that the clauses that were previously in the Bill did not deliver what noble Lords wanted—we believe that they did—but noble Lords demanded greater clarity, to put the matter beyond dispute. We believe that the amendments we have now brought forward do that. That is the reassurance that noble Lords wanted and, frankly, that is the reassurance which we were minded to give because we believe that those who have genuinely expressed those concerns are at one with us in our intent. Nobody in this House is subjectively reckless about what we are trying to do. I hope that I have reassured my noble friends and other noble Lords, including the noble Lords, Lord Dearing and Lord Butler, that we have done that which we needed to do to make the matter clear. My noble friend Lord Judd gave examples, as did the noble Lord, Lord Goodhart. In none of those examples, for the reasons that he identified, did I think that the individuals would be at risk. For the sake of completeness, it may be helpful if I deal with just a few of those of those examples. The noble Lord, Lord Goodhart, asked about a newsagent who was not aware of the content of a magazine. In that case, he is not being reckless so no offence is committed. What about Internet service providers who do not monitor what goes on? That was part of the question of the noble Lord, Lord Dearing, as well as of that of the noble Lord, Lord Goodhart. They too are not committing an offence. We discussed on the previous occasion what they can do to remove improper material from their websites in a way that is just. The BBC would be able to rely on the non-endorsement defence. A librarian who gives out a chemistry textbook would not be guilty of an offence because a chemistry textbook would not be a terrorist publication under Clause 2(5)(b). For a publication to be a terrorist publication, it has to be material of use to terrorists. It must be clear that the material that was of use to terrorists was included in the publication wholly or mainly for the purpose of being so useful. That is not the case with chemistry textbooks. I understand your Lordships’ anxieties. It is right and proper that they should be explored, but it is also right and proper to say that they have no basis in fact. We have therefore come to a conclusion which I hope will give us a sense of comfort, because those who said that we needed to make sure that the legislation was clear were right. We have now responded to them. I hope that noble Lords will therefore feel able to accept that the position adopted by Her Majesty’s Loyal Opposition—that is, supporting these amendments—is the correct and proper position.