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Terrorism Bill

My Lords, I thank the noble Baroness for setting out so clearly her continuing concerns. All the concerns she has enumerated are met by these amendments. The purpose of them is to put beyond doubt that the concerns the noble Baroness has outlined are without foundation. The issue with government amendment No. 40 was that we were conscious we needed to deal with each and every anxiety that has been expressed. Therefore, not only did we want to make it clear that the offence would not be made out in the way that was worried about, but that even if anyone should think that it might be, which is not admitted, you would have the defence in government amendment No. 40. This is belt, braces, garters and anything else you need to be assured that this will work. I shall deal with why we prefer our amendment. Those drafting this Bill were given clear instructions that there had to be clarity and that each amendment had to be consistent with the other so that they fitted. I understand that amendment No. 17 of the noble Lord, Lord Kingsland, seeks to achieve precisely the same as the Government’s amendments. The difference between us is that we maintain that the Government’s amendments are internally consistent with the other group of amendments we have drawn up, and, for that reason, need to be preferred. Let me seek to give the clear assurances that noble Lords seek, before dealing with the difference I say there is between Amendment No. 17 and our amendments. The formulation of the Government’s amendments comprising the intent test includes the requirement that the person intended that the audience of the document’s dissemination should include those who will be directly or indirectly encouraged. That implies a positive intention on behalf of the disseminator that there should be persons who will be encouraged to terrorism by the publication’s dissemination. The assurance about the specific intent sought by the noble Baroness is there. If a person is to be prosecuted on the basis that they are reckless as to the effect of the publication, they will have the necessary mental element—if it can be shown that they knew the content of the publication, and they were reckless as to whether or not the people in the audience could include persons who would be encouraged to terrorism. If a person knows the content of a publication, or it is so lurid or so notorious that they cannot have failed to realise its content, they will commit the offence recklessly if they supply it and it is reasonable that access to such publications should be restricted. Libraries take care with pornography, and it is reasonable to expect them to take care with publications that encourage terrorism or are useful to terrorists. Those are specific documents, not the issues the noble Baroness spoke about, such as The Anarchist’s Cookbook. I do not know whether she was telling us we should all go out and buy it, because she advertised where we could do so. The example she gave would not be caught by this Bill, as it was not the intention of the person selling the book that there would be terrorists in the audience, and the whole point was that these terrorists would get the book and then use it. That was not the seller’s intent, and therefore they would not fall within this construct we have put in.