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Terrorism Bill

Because, my Lords, the whole purpose of the publication is not to generate terrorism. It is a bit like the noble Lord’s example of the chemistry book. We know that chemistry books could be used by terrorists to make bombs. However, the purpose of writing a chemistry book and teaching chemistry is not so that terrorists will go out and create    bombs and kill people. Therefore, in the Government’s opinion, it is clearly beyond doubt that a chemistry textbook would not be considered as wholly or mainly for the purpose of being useful to terrorists. I do not know about The Anarchist’s Cookbook, but I doubt whether that is wholly or mainly the purpose of the writers of the book that it should be useful to terrorists. That is what is important. The formulation of the Government’s amendments comprising intent and recklessness includes the requirement that the person intended that the audience of a document disseminated should include persons who will be encouraged, not that it might include them by a stretch of the imagination. Their intent was that it should include such persons. As I have said, that implies a positive intention on behalf of the disseminator that there should be persons who will be encouraged to terrorism by the publication’s dissemination. There are those who argue that we have now set this so high that it might be difficult for us to catch those who are producers of publications that are specifically targeted at terrorists and to be used by terrorists, in these circumstances. The way we have structured it, we believe that will not be the case. But we have been conscious of the concerns that were expressed by my noble friend and others during this debate. We have already talked in the earlier debate about subjective recklessness and the need for it to be directly focused. Amendment No. 17 does not work with all the different sorts of conduct currently set out in Clause 2(1). In particular, the intention and recklessness in that amendment do not make sense where a person has a terrorist publication in his possession with a view to disseminating it. If one looks at, for instance, Clause 2(1)(f), it is impossible for a person to possess something with the intention of encouraging terrorism. That formulation implies that the possession must be capable of doing the encouraging, and of course it is not. The government amendments make it clear that the intention or recklessness relate not to the possession, but to what will happen if the possessed publication reaches, as contemplated, the hands of potential terrorists.