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Terrorism Bill

My Lords, I thank the noble and learned Lord for his compliment on my Scots. I think it was the noble and learned Lord, Lord Mackay of Clashfern—who I see is in his place—who made it plain when my noble friend Lady Kennedy of The Shaws and I were appointed on the same day to Silk that he had appointed one because he knew that she was a Scot and the other because he believed that she was one. I have thankfully taken some lessons. I am grateful to the noble and learned Lord, Lord Cameron of Lochbroom, for tabling Amendment No. 74. I am also grateful to him for the letter he sent to me setting out his interest in more detail. It is always helpful to be given advance notice of particular concerns and I hope I will be able to address each and every one of them. We have already benefited from the noble and learned Lord’s careful scrutiny of the Bill and have made changes to it as a result of the assiduous way in which he has examined it. However, as I explained in Committee, these matters have been considered very fully with the Lord Advocate and he did not believe them to be necessary. The noble and learned Lord, Lord Cameron, has explained that he needs to feel assured that the Lord Advocate has read the Hansard account of the relevant debate. I can confirm that he has done so and is still of the same view. The Hansard account of the debate on 13 December 2005 is at cols. 1145 to 1150. The Lord Advocate has had the opportunity to consider the arguments put forward by the noble and learned Lord, Lord Cameron of Lochbroom, but is still of the view that it would be inappropriate to accept this amendment. The Lord Advocate is grateful to the noble and learned Lord, Lord Cameron, for his careful scrutiny of the Bill—and, on his behalf, I express that gratitude. He also has some sympathy with the noble and learned Lord’s arguments in that the Lord Advocate is the head of the systems of prosecution and investigation of crimes and has statutory powers to instruct police in the investigation and reporting of crime under Section 17 of the Police (Scotland) Act 1967 and Section 12 of the Criminal Procedure (Scotland) Act 1995. Despite this, under the existing provisions in the Terrorism Act, police officers can apply for extensions to detentions under Schedule 8 of the Terrorism Act in Scotland. In practice, because of the protocol that exists between the Crown Office and the Procurator Fiscal Service, on one hand, and the Association of Chief Police Officers in Scotland, on the other, applications are made only with the agreement of the procurator fiscal. They are generally signed by a police officer of at least the rank of superintendent, but the procurator fiscal will attend the relevant hearing with the police officer and will speak to the application. The Lord Advocate would like to retain the possibility that police officers might apply for extensions to detentions. He does not believe it would be appropriate to reverse the existing arrangements in this respect. In addition, the Lord Advocate is still of the view that it would be inappropriate to have different powers in Scotland from the rest of the United Kingdom. Finally, in the letter that the noble and learned Lord, Lord Cameron of Lochbroom, kindly sent to me, he courteously asked me for figures to show how frequently the police apply for extensions to detentions under the Terrorism Act 2000. I can confirm that in 2005 in Scotland, four people were held for longer than 48 hours, of whom three were subsequently charged. The applications to extend the detention times were carried out in accordance with the protocol which I have described. I am most grateful to the noble and learned Lord for his ongoing scrutiny of the Bill. I hope he now fully understands why the Government prefer to allow the Bill to stay as it is, not least because we want to pay proper deference to the current Lord Advocate, who, after all, we rely on so fully in these matters. I hope the noble and learned Lord will concur with the current Lord Advocate’s view. With that explanation, I hope he will feel content to withdraw his amendment.