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Civil Aviation Bill

My Lords, I support the noble Baroness, Lady D’Souza, and I am grateful to her for bringing this matter forward again. I was not able to be present on the previous occasion when this was debated, although I read the Minister’s reply. On that occasion, the Minister suggested that the issues could not be dealt with by an amendment because they went beyond the scope of the Bill and that we were bound by international conventions. However, as has been pointed out tonight, a state does not need to rely on any treaty in relation to its jurisdiction over foreign civil aircraft, whether on the ground or in the air. It has the right to investigate whether an unlawful activity is being carried out on the ground or in its airspace. I can, to some extent, anticipate what the Minister will say. We will be told that it is inappropriate to agree such a far-reaching amendment; that it is not to do with the content of the Bill; that it will be inappropriate; that it will sit uneasily in the Bill; and that it will probably be full of practical difficulties. Looking at this issue, which is of huge importance, even if the Minister does resort to those arguments, and even if I were convinced by them, I would still vote for the amendment because of the gravity and seriousness of the issue that has been raised. It cannot be denied that extraordinary rendition—to distinguish it from ““rendition””, which is the rather hideous distinction that is made—is happening and is being practised. The three cases that the noble and learned Lord, Lord Archer, quoted are the ones that I would have picked of the cases that are public knowledge. What is significant about those three cases is that the three governments of the territories where the people were captured were all conducting investigations into them. In the instance in Italy where an Egyptian was seized on the streets of Milan, as the noble and learned Lord said, warrants have been issued for the arrest of several CIA agents; in the case of the German who was captured in Macedonia and then taken to Afghanistan, the German Government are investigating that; and in the case of the Canadian, who was taken first to Jordan, then to Syria and then back to Canada with no charges being levied against him, the Canadian Government are conducting an investigation into that in which the United States Government have refused to participate. That very strongly suggests that extraordinary rendition is occurring. Perhaps the Minister would answer this one question for me. It is a rather an unfair question for his portfolio. But, if the transfer of those people was not for the purpose of torture, for what reason could it have been? Why take someone from Macedonia to Afghanistan or from Milan to Egypt in order to interrogate him? For what purpose other than exercising undue force on people could there be for these interrogations? The evidence that something undesirable is going on is strongly suggestive. I would not agree with the suggestion of the noble Lord, Lord Campbell, that perhaps there was some agreement between the President and the Prime Minister. I would not accuse the Government of that. But I feel that the Government are turning a blind eye. They are not asking enough questions about what is going on. There is plenty of evidence, as was said by the noble Lord, Lord Garden, of CIA flights in and out of this country. Putting that aside, there are the cases referred to by the noble and learned Lord, Lord Archer. The Government have to give a fuller answer and demonstrate that they are taking some precautions in order to ensure that this country is not being directly or indirectly involved in this. I accept the assurance of the Foreign Secretary that—