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Government of Wales Bill

moved Amendment No. 43:"Leave out Clause 51 and insert the following new Clause—" ““LIMIT ON NUMBER OF MINISTERS (1) Not more than eight persons are to hold the office of Welsh Minister appointed under section 48 at any time. (2) Not more than three persons are to hold the office of Deputy Welsh Minister at any time.”” The noble Lord said: The amendment is self-explanatory. It seeks to limit the number of Welsh Ministers to eight and the number of Deputy Welsh Ministers to three, rather than the current provision to limit the total number of both posts to 12. It is a minor change and a probing new clause. I also seek to probe various issues relating to this provision. There are many reasons in favour of a limitation on the number of Ministers, not least the example of what has happened in Scotland. The number of Scottish Ministers has exploded from the original five to the current 22. I know that the responsibilities of the Scottish Parliament are considerably more extensive than those of the Welsh Assembly. Nevertheless, 22 Ministers is substantial. It might be described as a kind of overgrowth. It has obviously led to increased cost and complexity for possibly questionable benefit. In Wales, with its Assembly membership confined to 60, an inappropriately large number of Ministers and Deputy Ministers would, I think we would all agree, also reduce the number of Welsh Assembly Members available to hold those Ministers to account. I am glad to see that this Bill does not repeat the mistake made in the Scottish Act of placing no limit on the number of Ministers. As it is obviously so much harder to reduce the number of Ministers once they have been appointed rather than prevent them applying in the first place, it is sensible to have that limiting provision from the start. The current provision makes no distinction between Ministers and Deputy Ministers, which is necessary given that there is some confusion over the precise role of the new deputies. Perhaps the Minister would like to take this opportunity to explain exactly what need he envisages Deputy Ministers fulfilling. What is to be their role? Are they the equivalent of Ministers of State or Under-Secretaries of State in the United Kingdom Government? In addition, how will the National Assembly cope with the increased workload that will result from the implementation of Part 3 and especially Part 4? We have heard in the other place that the Assembly will sit for more weeks and more hours in the week and that that should allow Assembly Members adequately to scrutinise the legislation and perform their functions. If the Minister has views to express on the new Assembly and its workload, we would be grateful to hear them. I beg to move.