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Government of Wales Bill

As we have heard, Amendment No. 43 would limit the number of Ministers to eight and Deputy Ministers to three. The Government agree that a limit is important to the effective function of the Assembly and that there should be a limit on the size of the payroll vote. The Bill sets a statutory limit in Clause 51 so there is no danger of the sort of explosion mentioned by the noble Lord, Lord Roberts, that has happened in Scotland. We agree with the noble Lord, Lord Livsey, that the amendment is too restrictive. We do not believe that the limit on the number of Ministers and Deputy Ministers needs to be reduced. Moreover, the Government believe that it is not necessary to limit the First Minister’s discretion over the balance of Ministers and Deputy Ministers. The limit prescribed in the Bill—a combined total of no more than 12 Welsh Ministers and Deputy Welsh Ministers—is consistent with the current situation. There are currently eight Cabinet Ministers in addition to the First Minister, and four Deputy Ministers. In the House of Commons, there are currently 89 Ministers, including Whips, and 51 Parliamentary Private Secretaries. This represents around 21.7 per cent of the total membership of the Commons. The limit that we have proposed for the Assembly, taken together with the First Minister and the Counsel General, represents only a fractionally greater proportion of the Assembly if the Counsel General is also an Assembly Member, and a smaller proportion than in the House of Commons if the Counsel General is not. The Assembly will also have powers over Welsh Ministers’ and Deputy Welsh Ministers’ salaries by virtue of Clause 53, should there be any concern about the size of the payroll. Furthermore, I draw the attention of the House to the fact that in the Assembly Committee’s consideration of the Bill, the only suggested amendment to this clause, which was subsequently withdrawn, sought to set limits of eight Ministers and five deputies. The noble Lord, Lord Roberts of Conwy, raised the question of the workload of the Assembly in relation to the number of Ministers. As I believe I pointed out previously, to ensure adequate scrutiny there is considerable scope for the Assembly to adapt its working practices and to spend less time on routine subordinate legislation. The Presiding Officer, the noble Lord, Lord Dafydd Elis-Thomas, agrees and has said that the timetable should increase from 33 to a minimum of 40 weeks a year and that Monday and Thursday mornings should become part of the Assembly’s working week. In an interview he said:"““I agree with the Secretary of State, we all have to work harder here. There should be three to four days of proper scrutiny . . . We should sit for at least 40 weeks a year . . . We finished for Christmas at least a fortnight before Parliament””." With that explanation, I hope that the noble Lord will feel able to withdraw his amendment.