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Government of Wales Bill

The noble Duke is absolutely right in his definition; I am merely describing what the Welsh counterpart to that is. The Orders in Council for Wales are not arbitrary, authoritarian acts of an executive; they are the democratic will of the National Assembly being translated to this Parliament for both Houses to consider whether those powers should be conferred. I am merely indicating that, far from the Opposition’s case that what is involved here is an arbitrary process that requires a referendum, what we are involved in is a democratic process that fulfils the objectives of the Welsh people. It was the case that the Conservative Party in the other House went a little further than the noble Lord, Lord Kingsland, has done today. It faced up to the fact that there are some difficulties with regard to the referendum, because we would have to work out what kind of question could be put to the Welsh people, who enjoy some powers but now may wish to increase those powers; not as a total package, but incrementally. The shadow Attorney-General had a shot at the question that should be put to the Welsh people:"““““do people wish to be governed by Order in Council moderated in its detail by the Welsh Assembly””.—[Official Report, Commons, 9/1/06; col. 119.]" What kind of participation in a referendum does any noble Lord think would take place under a question of that degree of abstruseness? That is the nature of the problem. What we have already is a Welsh Assembly with powers. There are good reasons and pressures from within the Welsh community for additional powers, but they are not powers that one can put into a total package and say, ““This is the question before the Welsh people—do you want this in its totality?””. It is not like a European Community referendum, which of course the Conservative Party did not offer; it is not like a referendum for the Scottish people, which the Conservative Party never offered. It is different from those, and that is why the Government are saying that this is not the kind of question that is subject to a referendum. But it must follow due democratic process, and I am identifying the process that will be followed.