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Home Office

My Lords, I join my voice to all those who have commended the noble Lord, Lord Fowler, for introducing this debate. I thank him, in particular, for the kind compliments that he made to me. I assure him that if, when I am no longer privileged to represent the Government at the Dispatch Box, he ever finds himself innocent, wrongly charged and in need of assistance, it will be my privilege and pleasure to come to his aid. He will find that I will scrutinise the evidence brought against him, I will analyse the fallacious and contentious submissions that are tendered against him, and I will rely on the evidence and not on supposition or distortion. If we are so lucky as to have a fair, just and right-thinking tribunal, he will, I hope, secure his just acquittal. I can also assure him that I will be so anxious to assist him that he will have my support free, gratis and for nothing. I assure the noble Lord that in responding to this debate those same qualities will be brought to bear. I am grateful to my noble friend Lord Corbett of Castle Vale for the helpful evidence that he has adduced in relation to the reality of the facts as to what we inherited and what we have achieved. Of course, his recitation of those facts was correct. There are more police officers today than at any time in the history of the service, with a total of 141,270 officers on 30 September 2005. The visible uniformed presence will have been further bolstered by an increase in the number of CSOs to 28,000 by 2008. The reduction in crime, the improvement of the work that we have done for victims and witnesses, and the ability that we now have to work together are things of which we dreamed in the past but could not obtain. I remind the House again of the very sage words of Lord Justice Auld: when he undertook a review of the criminal justice system, he found that the system was not fit for that name because people were working independently. The creation of the national and local criminal justice boards, the crime and disorder reduction partnerships and the ability to work together in partnership has been the way in which we have delivered the extraordinary successes that this Government have been privileged to be part of. I emphasise that that success is not the Government’s alone. They may have created the framework and the tools, which enabled those changes to take place, but the real credit has to be given to those who have worked so hard and so diligently together across government with non-governmental agencies and with the communities to bring about the huge improvements. That lesson of partnership, participation and sharing is one that the Government not only applaud but will continue to follow. I must say how much I agree with noble Lord in his statement that the Home Office is not ungovernable. The division suggested by the noble Lord, Lord Ramsbotham, is not a panacea and, if I may respectfully suggest, would be unlikely to provide the relief that he seeks. The noble Lord, Lord Brooke of Sutton Mandeville, was right to say that one would have to be cautious about any change and judicious in considering how such change should be made. Many things have migrated from the Home Office, not only to the Department for Culture, Media and Sport, but also to the Department for Constitutional Affairs. Those migrations have been carefully managed and smoothly done. One can see from that transition the benefits and merits that have been obtained thereby. I disagree that there have not been many successes of which we should be rightly proud. But, as I have come to learn, working in the Home Office is very much like painting the Forth Bridge. One starts at one end and paints with due diligence—and glowing is the part one leaves behind. But forward always is the sharp relief that the new paint casts on the new parts that are still in need of care and attention. I assure noble Lords that the current Home Secretary is rigorous in his approach to ensuring that all parts are reached, and reached in a way that will make significant changes. The noble Lord, Lord Fowler, said that there has been success in things that do not matter and lack of success in things that do. I assure him that success in anti-social behaviour orders, success in the reduction of crime, success in the ability to address the horrible scourge of domestic violence, success in how we deal with young people in relation to crime and the work that has been done by the youth justice boards are all very valuable to the people of this country. Those are things that do matter—not perhaps to all, but certainly to us and the people who are badly affected by crime. I say to the noble Baroness, Lady Stern, that evidence-based policy development is still alive and well in the Home Office. I assure her that the changes that we seek to put in place are based on empirical evidence. The noble Lord, Lord Dholakia, is right to identify the things that make a significant difference for prisoners and, indeed, for victims. If noble Lords have had the opportunity to look at our five-year strategy they will find included in it all those elements, such as the work that we have to do together on housing and education, and on finding other opportunities to work. All those things on health are within it and within the seven pathways out of crime. I have spoken about the creation of the three alliances in this House before—the corporate alliance, the civic-based alliance and the faith-based and voluntary sector alliance are all opportunities for change, improvement and advancement. I know that the noble Baroness, Lady Stern, understands that notwithstanding their youth we have within our estate some very dangerous young people who are needy but who present dangers to others. For them there are and will remain a need to respond appropriately, to keep them secure but also to keep others secure from them. That is not to deny the fact that they are children or that they have needs as children, but to accept that they pose a risk to the public that must be safely managed. These are all issues that we must solve. If we are to solve the issues with which we are faced, we have to take a holistic approach, which means working in partnership with others. May I say to the noble Lord, Lord Ramsbotham, that I was rather surprised by his surprise that we should be working so energetically with the Department for Education and Skills? If we are to make the changes in education that the noble Lord, Lord Dholakia, spoke of, it is fundamental that education provision should be made available to prisoners and to those who offend in the community in a way that is consistent and sound. I am pleased and happy—I go so far as to say delighted—to be working in closest union with my colleague in that department, Mr Phil Hope, on that agenda. We are determined to make significant change. I do not hide from your Lordships that if our department is to succeed in the changes that it needs to put in place, it will have to work with all others. We will have to work energetically with the departments responsible for health, education, housing, and with the DCMS in finding alternatives for young and other offenders and finding wholesome activities for them to do. That partnership work is fundamental and is very much part of this department’s ethos. The noble Lord, Lord Norton of Louth, made some powerful comments about the need for communication. I understood some of the comments that he made about how, as one homes in on the development and delivery for individual parts of the department, it can become increasingly difficult to maintain the synergy and communication, so it is necessary to look systemically not just at the individual parts but at how the links between those parts operate. I assure him that in the capacity review that is being undertaken, that work is continuing right now. We hope that by the end of this Session we shall be in a better position to see whether all the structures for proper delivery are there. In looking at the need for change we should not in any way undervalue the changes that have already been delivered, because they are all part of a piece. The review focuses on five key lines of inquiry. First, there is the role of the executive board, including the non-executive directors; the leadership and empowerment of the department; the variety, appropriateness and complexity of the business models; the impact on the delivery chain; the corporate services, and how they support the business; and the prioritisation of resources around what is most important. We expect to be able to report on that in due course; it is being energetically pursued. The noble Lord is also right in saying that this is a new way of looking at delivery and how government function. We have tried to amend the system that we inherited and have managed many improvements. The noble Baroness, Lady Anelay of St Johns, talked about our work on asylum and immigration, but she knows as well as I do that when we started this work using the old system we inherited, the application took about 22 months; it now takes eight weeks. I am sure, in her normal, charitable, well reasoned way, the noble Baroness would agree that eight weeks is a little better than 22 months. We have delivered again and again, but there is much more for us to do. The energy has not gone out of this Government. On the matter rightly raised on so many occasions by my noble friend Lord Corbett and the noble Lord, Lord Marlesford, on the work being done by PITO, the re-run of the beta pilot will now go ahead on 5 June, as scheduled—so it should have gone ahead. If successful, the system will then be re-rolled out to all forces by March 2007. If there are any changes, I will write to the noble Lord, Lord Marlesford, and my noble friend Lord Corbett. I assure noble Lords that nothing causes me more pain than knowing that when I next come to this Dispatch Box I will be hit with the same issue both from behind and before. My energy in ensuring that I have an acceptable answer for your Lordships is not to be underestimated. The changes needed in the Home Office are clear; I have referred to them already and they are going to be put in place. On foreign national prisoners, I assure the noble Baroness, Lady Anelay, that we are working hard on the issues of the join between the Prison Service and the IND. A review is going on to see how we can make that system work as effectively and efficiently as we can in a practical way. Much has been done, but we understand that much remains to be done to ensure that that part of the system is truly fit for purpose and can be replied on to deliver what we seek. I know that we will return to these debates on many occasions. I am confident that, when we do so, there will be even more attention on these issues. I assure noble Lords that I have greatly enjoyed this opportunity to defend, in my modest way, the Home Office. I hope that noble Lords will feel that the Home Office can be acquitted, and remains a great department of state.