---

Charities Bill

Being a lawyer was a proper job, was it not? What did the hon. Gentleman do? I used to advise start-up businesses and charities on organisation as a company limited by shares, guarantee, trust and so on. Would it not be great to have one simple, cohesive and straightforward organisational structure that most new charities will adopt? That is a sensible suggestion, and I hope that it becomes fashionable and popular. I hope that investment and effort will be put into producing off-the-shelf templates, which small organisations can pick up to organise their businesses with little delay or cost. We heard some excellent speeches today. The Minister for the Cabinet Office introduced the Bill in a measured way, as befits legislation of this kind that has wide support. She gave a number of reassurances about how the public benefit test might apply to organisations already benefiting from the assumption of public interest. We must wait to see whether they pan out, but it was reassuring to hear of her belief—I paraphrase—that all, or almost all, independent schools, hospitals and religious organisations ought to pass the public benefit test. I invite the Minister to intervene if she wishes to clarify that. The Minister also said that each case would be considered and judged on its merits. I should like to hear from the Parliamentary Secretary, when he winds up the debate, how that process will work. We have talked about 190,000 charities. What is the time scale for a case-by-case assessment? It seems to me that it would be a huge job. My hon. Friend the Member for Isle of Wight (Mr. Turner) made a typically powerful speech. As is his shadow ministerial responsibility, he drew attention to some of the pitfalls that will have to be considered carefully in Committee. He spoke of the difficulties and costs that will be incurred by many existing charities on which will fall the onus of proof that they benefit the public. That process must be clarified. My hon. Friend called for a light touch in regulation, and for accountability. We do not oppose the public benefit test, but as Members in all parts of the House have said today, it represents a controversial and significant change. We are right to probe the Government to confirm that they have thought through the new system, and that it will be introduced with a measure of insight and wisdom. The right hon. Member for Darlington (Mr. Milburn)—who has not yet returned from what I am sure has been an enjoyable evening—chaired the Joint Committee, and the whole House owes him a debt of gratitude for the way in which he did so. He treated us to his experience of these matters. It might be said that he rolled out his progressive credentials at the same time, possibly with half an eye on the future, but we shall see what happens in that regard. He spoke of an opportunity for the charitable sector to offer high quality services and to embark on a real partnership with the private and public sectors. That is exactly what the Conservatives want. The hon. Member for Cheltenham (Martin Horwood), speaking for the Liberal Democrats, supported the Bill and brought to bear some specialist knowledge from his background, which informed and assisted debate. I think that he slightly misunderstood what my hon. Friend the Member for Isle of Wight had said, but we were treated to the good news that the Liberal Democrats had unveiled a new policy tonight—a policy of consistency. That is warmly welcomed by the whole House. The hon. Gentleman made important points about the need for clarity, especially in the Bill’s definitions and the Charity Commission’s guidelines. That was an important reminder, to which I shall return. The right hon. Member for Cardiff, South and Penarth (Alun Michael) also has great experience in this field. He spoke of the vibrant and important partnership between the Government and the voluntary and charitable sector. In giving the Bill a warm welcome, he recognised that removing the assumption of public benefit was a courageous step—taking our minds back, perhaps, to the great ““Yes, Minister”” programmes—but he said that it was the right thing to do, thus nailing his colours to the Government’s mast. He called for clarity on the public benefit test—I think that the whole House wants the Parliamentary Secretary to deal with that important point—and said that the Charity Commission should listen to Parliament. That is crucial—Parliament has expressed itself very firmly, and we want the commission to listen to us. I am one of those who have said, on the basis of our experience in our constituencies and our former lives in the real world, that the commission has not always impressed people by the degree to which it listens and proceeds flexibly, without bureaucracy. We look for better performance in the future. The right hon. Gentleman advised his Front Bench not to be too prescriptive in its definitions, and spoke of the changing and diverse nature of today’s voluntary and charitable sector. My hon. Friend the Member for Sutton Coldfield (Mr. Mitchell) spoke with great authority, having served on the Joint Committee. He gave the Government 7.5 out of 10—which was pretty charitable, for him—for listening to the Committee and incorporating some of its recommendations, to which I have already referred. The right hon. Member for Darlington has just returned. I know that he has been engaged in important business. As I was saying, my hon. Friend gave the Government 7.5 out of 10, but he hoped for a higher score as we approach Third Reading. He was particularly concerned about certain recommendations that were missing from the Bill in its current form—for instance, those stating that regulation should involve a light touch, that the independence of the charitable sector should not be compromised, that schools, hospitals and religious bodies should not bear the brunt of the removal of the assumption of public benefit, and about the recommendation relating to the removal of excepted status from armed services’ mess charities. He urged the Government to ensure that those recommendations were incorporated during the Bill’s passage. The hon. Member for Brighton, Pavilion (David Lepper) brought to bear his experience of town centre management in his thoughtful speech about charitable collectors—I did not know that they are often described as ““chuggers””—and the undesirable and offputting nature of some of their activity. He expressed scepticism about self-regulation in that context. Given his experience, the House should take account of what he said, and we should give more thought to the matter in Committee. My hon. Friend the Member for Rochford and Southend, East (James Duddridge) expressed grave concern about access for people with learning disabilities to trusteeships of local organisations. The Parliamentary Secretary may be able to say something about that. My hon. Friend made his point powerfully and forcefully. He also expressed concern about large charities spending too much on salaries and political campaigning, and said that more guidance for some would make the public more confident. The hon. Member for Selby (Mr. Grogan) made one of his typically concise speeches. Indeed, it was so concise that I missed it when I nipped out briefly, but I know that he described his Front Bench as a dream team, which is an interesting concept. He also—importantly—called for the public benefit test to be tightened, an issue to which we will no doubt return in Committee. The hon. Member for High Peak (Tom Levitt), on the basis of his experience and background, described the tremendous contribution of a wide variety of charities in his constituency. He referred particularly to progress in recent years by, for instance, the Council for Voluntary Services in his area. He illustrated the difficulty of regulating in the charitable sector by giving the example of a group of people who were moved by the plight of some children in Nepal, and set up a charity to do something about it. They stand alongside Oxfam, which has been doing such things for ever, and other great British charities. We have a single system that regulates all of them, and flexibility is very important. I am sure that the Minister took that on board. The hon. Member for Hove (Ms Barlow) made the important point that all that glisters is not gold. It is no good our thinking that all charities are wonderful and always make wise decisions. The House was moved and concerned to learn of the plight of the hon. Lady’s constituents in Dresden house, about which she made some powerful points. The hon. Member for South Derbyshire (Mr. Todd) spoke warmly about the role of the voluntary sector. One of his important points was that it is not necessarily true that every voluntary organisation would benefit from joining the state sector. He mentioned the air ambulance service, which we also have in my part of the world. It is sometimes right for such services to be outside the state sector, but more clarity, support and guidance from that sector would sometimes be welcome. We had a good-natured and informative debate. I want to focus briefly on three issues. The end of the presumption of the public benefit test is controversial. It is a significant change for many organisations that have enjoyed that presumption for hundreds of years. We do not know what guidelines the Charity Commission will produce to help people decide what is and is not in the public interest. It has already produced some guiding principles, but it is quite capable of changing those. We do not know what the final guidelines will look like, so this is very much a step in the dark. It is imperative for the House to have as much information as possible about the nature of the guidelines according to which the industry will operate before the House makes its final decisions on Report and Third Reading. If there was a common theme on both sides of the House, it was the need for clarity and certainty, especially for well-established organisations that need to know what hurdles they have to jump to ensure that they are operating for the public benefit.