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Further Education and Training Bill [HL]

I thank the Minister for his response but I find it rather disappointing. I do not think that he answered my questions about how it is proposed that the Learning and Skills Council will adapt itself, given other proposals. For example, with the raising of the school leaving age, the first part of the Act becomes irrelevant, because it talks about those above the compulsory leaving age but below the age of 19. If the compulsory leaving age becomes 18, it will all need to be adapted. If the money is going directly to the individual and the firm, that will considerably change how the Learning and Skills Council will operate in the adult sector. The Minister did not respond to those questions. I accept what he said, because there was an inevitability to it. I knew that that was the answer that we would get. Here was an opportunity for him to talk a little about the way things are likely to develop, but we have heard nothing on that. When I spoke to Amendment No. 3, I had forgotten that it had been grouped with the Question whether Clause 5 will stand part. That change was made overnight and, although I had noted it, my papers had not caught up, so I did not speak to the clause-stand-part Question. I add our support to the probing by the noble Baroness, Lady Morris of the Government’s decision. Alone among those here, I think, except for the noble Baroness, Lady David, I was present at our debates on the Learning and Skills Bill in 2000. We had considerable debate about the wisdom of having two separate committees. At that point, the noble Baroness, Lady Blackstone, who was the Minister at the time, repeatedly assured us that the adult committee was there partly to safeguard adult services. Adult services are not just services relating to learning, skills and employability but also adult leisure learning, which is an important part of the process. At the time of the Act, the pressures of competitiveness had driven adult leisure learning into a very small corner with ever decreasing subsidies, closure of many adult learning centres and increases in fees. For the general well-being of an ageing population, there is a strong case to be made for maintaining an active and vibrant adult learning programme. We know from good, robust research evidence that those adults who keep mentally and physically active not only live longer but live happier and more fulfilled lives. In promoting general well-being among the older people of this country, adult leisure classes are probably the most cost-effective measure for the Government to promote. Yet in town after town and county after county, such classes are being closed down, with both the LSC and county councils shutting them out of their budgets. In all respects, therefore—both in training adults in skills for competitiveness and in providing for the greater happiness and well-being of older members of the community—it is a retrograde step to abolish the two statutory committees within the LSC with their responsibilities to look separately at, and safeguard the interests of, young people and adults. The Minister gave us an answer similar to the one he gave to the first amendment, tabled by my noble friend Lady Walmsley. Yes, it is convenient if the number of members of the committee is reduced to 10 because the current chairman of the Learning and Skills Council is anxious to have a smaller committee so that he can make it more efficient. Once again, he has said that we should not be tied down by statutory responsibilities to having an adult committee and a young persons’ committee, and that it is more convenient to be able to choose the committees at our will. The original intention in the Learning and Skills Act was for the adult committee to safeguard adult services. We feel let down on that commitment, and that the Government are not living up to their promises. The clause is symptomatic of that. Having said all that, unless anyone wants to intervene—