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House of Lords: Reform

My Lords, I confess that I have argued with myself for some time on this subject. I begin by saying how much I have learnt to appreciate the work, the tradition and the friendship of Members of this House in my seven years here. Having said that, I feel committed both by the 1911 pledge of my party and by my basic view as a democrat. I have a good deal of sympathy this evening for the noble and learned Lord the Lord Chancellor because, having listened to the debate, I think that it will be difficult to find a consensus or to take forward this process of reform. I will concentrate on one or two points of detail rather than repeat some of the larger arguments that we have heard so effectively stated but which I do not feel are likely to persuade people on either side. This is a debate to take note of the White Paper. Unfortunately, to some extent the votes last week in the House of Commons have made the White Paper a little less white; I am not sure that it is grey yet, but it is certainly not as white as it was. Much of the White Paper, as has been made clear by a number of noble Lords who have spoken, will now have to be reconsidered. At one stage, I read in the press that the Leaderof the House of Commons suggested that the Cunningham committee might be reconvened to look at the implications of the new situation. Is that likely to be the case? Like a number of others who have spoken, I believe that, as I said in our debate on the Cunningham committee’s report on 16 January of this year, a change to 80 per cent or even 100 per cent elected will require us to consider very carefully the need for a written constitution. That is a much more substantial exercise. I am not convinced that it would necessarily mean bringing the judges into action, but a clear definition of the respective powers of the two Houses would be needed if they were both elected or overwhelmingly elected. Last week’s decisions have led me to think more carefully about the choice between 80 per cent and 100 per cent. The arguments against a fully elected House have been put fairly carefully, but there are also arguments against hybridity. If the 50 per cent, 30 per cent or 20 per cent solutions in the White Paper had led to agreement between the two Houses, it would have been worth putting up with those arguments for hybridity, but now that we may be coming to an 80 per cent elected House, it is worth looking at those arguments again. It is not altogether clear, despite what has frequently been said, of whom the 20 per cent would consist. Under the proposals in the White Paper—and with50 per cent elected—those Members would have been Cross-Benchers, but now presumably, as has been suggested, some space will have to be provided for government nominations of Ministers, for Bishops, for the Prime Minister’s nomination of holders of high office on retirement and possibly for nominations by other party leaders. It is not clear whether the whole of the 20 per cent in that situation would necessarily totally be available for the Cross Benches. That is one of the matters that will have to be clarified in the months to come. The number of Cross-Benchers in a House reduced to perhaps 450 might be only 50. In those circumstances, is the case for a hybrid House so strong and might the logic of 100 per cent not increase? That is something that we should at least consider, although we would have to take into account the costs, which were made very clear to us by the right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Chelmsford. I raise a second issue in considering what is frequently described as the most essential function of this House; namely, its function of revising legislation. I had a chance while I was Chief Whip to see a lot of the work done in committees in this House, and I have been reflecting on the fact that some of the most effective Members of this House in the detailed consideration of legislation are those, as my noble friend Lord Wallace of Saltaire said, who had experience in local government before coming into this House. It may very well be that a natural place for political parties to look in choosing their candidates will be among the senior members of local authorities, which would mean a continuation of people with that sort of background and that particularly useful capacity. However, I have always been attracted by the system of indirect election to a second Chamber, as in the French Senate or in the confusingly named First Chamber of the Netherlands Parliament, by an electorate built up from local and regional government. Election by, or selection of, regional or local government provides a second-order democracy, but also ensures an important differentiation between the two Chambers and the primacy of the directly elected House. I realise that arguments for indirect election have not been particularly popular in early discussions, either in my party or in the wider debate, but I now wonder whether, if we are to go to a wholly elected House, the question should not be re-examined—I was particularly interested in what the noble Lord, Lord Trimble, said about how the Northern Ireland Senate was elected between 1922 and 1971. I should make it clear that having a system like that in France or the Netherlands does not imply that all those elected come from local government, although a number do; in such systems, the electorate are from a regional and local government base. It may be that a proportion of the House could be indirectly elected in that way, if it was thought that otherwise there would be too much bias towards local government. We shall certainly return to the subject, but I wish the issues that I have raised tonight to be considered by those taking the matter forward between now and the next time we discuss these matters.