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House of Lords: Reform

My Lords, I arrived in your Lordships' House 10 years ago. Like 58 other people nominated before me, I had been Chairman of Ways and Means. I hope that in the future those who subsequently serve that great office in the other place, whether they be men or women, will be able to follow us into your Lordships' House to serve the nation to the best of their ability and that their skills, particularly their impartiality, will be available to Parliament. There is a certain irony about the timing of this debate. It was in March 1649 that England became a republic; at the time, interestingly, there was not much public opposition or significant support for any other form of government. It was on 19 March that your Lordships' House was abolished, only to be restored in 1657 when Parliament agreed to the creation of the other House, with its own Cromwellian peerage—an early issue of ““Oliver’s cronies””. Noble Lords on all sides have said that the issue boils down to the so-called legitimacy created by popular election, which I would like briefly to examine. I live in Bedfordshire and have close associations with Northamptonshire. In neither county can I find any great desire to change things in your Lordships' House. A wider poll from Populus found that 75 per cent of those questioned believed that the Lords should remain a mainly appointed House because—and this is what happens when you go out into the counties you know well—they value our independence. That is what Joe Public values—the independence of mind, thought and action of your Lordships' House. The votes in the other place warrant close attention—I suppose I think that because I was used to counting the results of the votes there. It is sad to note that the Irish Members were unable to vote on this great issue. Why is poor Ireland always left on the sidelines? To have those key votes on the day of the Irish election reflects badly on the management of the Commons. Leaving that aside, significant numbers of Members turned out. Some 565 voted on that occasion out of a total of 642—a turnout of 88 per cent, which I think is pretty good. But fewer than 60 per cent voted for the option which had the biggest majority of 113. I draw attention to that figure because in constitutions across the world, major constitutional change, particularly in south and south-east Asia, which I know particularly well, always requires a two-thirds majority. That figure is some way away from being two-thirds. Given also the strange dimension of tactical voting, mentioned by the noble Lord, Lord Wedderburn—it appears that 57 Members managed to vote for both a fully elected House and a fully appointed House—the legitimacy of the majority is highly questionable. As one would expect, the debate on 6 March was introduced by the Leader of the House and the shadow Leader, whose speeches contained the key policies of their party. I suspect that many noble Lords have read them. I have listened to a great many speeches in the other place and, on an issue of this importance, they are probably the most incompetent, incoherent speeches to listen to. The leader faced intervention after intervention, but the speech of Chris Mullin MP encapsulated everything. He asked: "““Is that not the nub of the problem? An elected House or a part-elected House would be used to undermine the legitimacy of this House””.—[Official Report, Commons, 6/3/07; col. 1392.]" Mr Mullin had at col. 1391 quoted the remarks of my noble friend Lord Kingsland on the Police and Justice Bill, from which it could be inferred that this legitimacy could be challenged. The Leader of the House said that that was a key issue but that they would get round it. That is what we heard in yesterday’s opening speeches. We were told that our leaders say exactly the same thing; they all somehow believe that they can put fetters on democracy, but you cannot. If Parliament decides to vote in an elected Chamber and you unleash democracy, you unleash competition. I do not know how many of your Lordships have been in local government where control changes, or in a highly marginal seat with numerous recounts, but it has been my privilege to experience both. The excitement, the passion, the anger and the fervour are such that in both experiences, you do not accommodate the other side. That is exactly what will happen when this House, elected, gets into a row with the other place. That would be a great tragedy. Sadly, none of those who are deeply involved in this and who make up the leadership on the Government Benches, my Benches and in another place have been through that experience, which will be a great problem for the future. If there is to be an elected House, our leaders will have to think about two questions. First, since Back-Benchers across the two major parties here and in the other place disagree with their leaders, how will our views be properly considered? The noble Baroness, Lady Symons of Vernham Dean, raised this issue in some detail this morning. She was right, and she needs an answer like the rest of us. Secondly, what choice will the British people really get when all three leaders of political parties put an almost identical message in their manifestos? If Parliament and the people believe that our constitution requires dramatic change, you need to consult the people. After all, we were all to be consulted and to vote on the proposed European constitution. If Europe, barely 50 years old, demands that it should have a vote on a change of constitution, how much more does this House, with its experience and longevity, deserve it?