---

House of Lords: Reform

My Lords, I said in my opening remarks that this would prove to be an historic debate, and so it has proved. We have heard about 130 speakers over the course of nearly 19 hours. I think that I am the only person who has heard all 130 speakers—with the exception of my noble friend Lord Brooke, for which I apologise. The contributions from noble Lords on all sides of the House have been thoughtful, considered and in keeping with the importance of this issue both for Parliament and the country as a whole. As the noble Lord, Lord St John of Fawsley, said yesterday, if anyone had doubts about the value of this House, they would been allayed by listening to this debate. I am grateful to the House for the manner in which the debate has been conducted. It has been, and will be seen as, a testament to the best qualities of this House; qualities on which any reform package would seek to build. We will remember this debate, for example, for the return and speech of my noble and learned friend Lord Irvine, the speech of my noble friend Lord Richard, the speech of the noble Baroness, Lady Boothroyd, and the speech of my noble friend Lady Symons. In a debate with so many interesting and well informed speakers, it would be impossible to list them all or to respond to all the points raised, but noble Lords should be reassured that we have listened to all sides of the debate and will reflect carefully on what has been said here over the past two days. There have been considerable disagreements, but also an encouraging amount of agreement between the speakers on many of the key issues surrounding this difficult matter. There was, most notably, broad agreement for a statutory Appointments Commission, which almost all those in favour of either an all-appointed or hybrid House supported. There was also broad, if not unanimous, agreement that the work that this House does currently is good and adds value to the legislative process. My noble friend Lord Elder and the noble Lord, Lord Wedderburn of Charlton, were rare voices in calling for a unicameral Parliament. There was general, although not universal, recognition that the remaining retained places for hereditary Peers should cease, many arguing for it to be done by stopping the system of by-elections. The noble Duke, the Duke of Montrose, the noble Lady, Lady Saltoun of Abernethy, the noble Earl, Lord Ferrers, the noble Lord, Lord Palmer, and the noble Viscount, Lord Trenchard, were notable exceptions to this aspect of the consensus. The noble Lord, Lord Trefgarne, reminded us that we agreed to the keeping of the hereditaries until stage 2 was in place. We agreed that in the White Paper and stand by it. There was also agreement that the reforms of 1999 have made this House more effective. When I hear, from all sides, how much of an improvement that reform is now held to be, I hope that I am permitted a wry smile when I remember how it was opposed at the time. I am glad to see that the wisdom of the approach taken by my noble and learned friend Lord Irvine and the noble Viscount, Lord Cranborne, as he then was, have proved justified. Our debate over the past two days has seen a large number of different points. Perhaps I can best respond by trying to group them into a number of important areas. First, many noble Lords discussed the effect on the debate of the votes in the House of Commons for an 80 and 100 per cent elected House. The noble Lord, Lord McNally, described it as ““the thunder of reform””. The noble Lord, Lord Wallace of Saltaire, said, ““the game has changed””. The noble Viscount, Lord Bledisloe, suggested a vote here for 50:50 might be a signal to the other place that there could be common ground between the two Houses. The noble Lord, Lord Roper, said that the vote might have made the White Paper a little less white. The noble Lord, Lord Hoyle, said that we cannot ignore it. The noble Lord, Lord Trimble, said that the vote in the Commons did not decide anything. He is correct. No decision has yet been made on the composition of this House, not least because this House has not yet had its say. The votes in the Commons should affect neither our views being expressed nor how we vote. The effect of the Commons votes, however, means that after we have debated the issue we must decide whether there is enough common ground to seek, in discussion, a way forward. We must also consider how we can do that, and remember that the process must involve mutual respect for both Houses’ views. Much of the debate over the past two days considered the role of this House and what it should be. Again, there was broad, if not universal, agreement, that this House should be a revising Chamber, helping the Commons to hold the Executive to account, and asking the Executive to think again on some issues from time to time. Much praise was rightly given to the excellent report of the Joint Committee chaired by my noble friend Lord Cunningham. Many, like my noble friend Lord Tomlinson, felt that the Joint Committee’s report sets the current benchmark for how the powers of the current House should be exercised in relation to the Commons. The noble and learned Lord, Lord Howe, said that the current House performs its vital role ““impeccably””. The noble Lord, Lord Brooke of Alverthorpe—I apologise again to him for not being in the Chamber when he made his remarks—said that the Lords have both power and influence. This House does a good job, one that has been praised here and in the other place. I thought at the beginning of this debate, and I still do, that the current role of this House is the right one, and that the current conventions underpinning the relationship between the two Houses are the right ones. I sensed broad support for that approach across the House. If we can agree on that, and I believe that this debate has shown that there is broad consensus here, it cannot be beyond our abilities to conceive of a system, if reform takes place, where the current relationship between the two Houses is broadly maintained and the current conventions are broadly kept in place to govern that relationship. Our argument is that this House needs greater legitimacy to sustain its present position in our constitution. Those who oppose an element of election claim that the House’s present position is entirely sustainable and that any election will destabilise Parliament, leading to demands for increased powers from the Lords. There were some telling interventions by the noble Lord, Lord Fowler, and the noble and learned Lord, Lord Howe. The noble and learned Lord told us that when he was the Leader of the other place he treated his opposite number in this House with, in his own words, ““the utmost condescension””. I wondered whether things had changed at all with his relationship with the current Leader of the Conservative Party. That brings me on to my third point about the effect of the changes in composition on the relationship between the two Houses. It has been suggested by many speakers, probably the majority, that introducing an elected element would automatically lead to this House seeking more power, gaining more power or exercising its current powers more assertively. The noble Lords, Lord Waddington, Lord Armstrong of Ilminster, Lord Trefgarne, Lord Watson of Richmond and Lord Fowler, the noble Earl, Lord Ferrers, and my noble friend Lord Lea of Crondall all made that point. The noble Lord, Lord Strathclyde, said that an elected senate would use its powers more, which he thought would be a good thing, enabling the House to make a more effective contribution to the work of Parliament. The noble Lord, Lord Williamson, speaking from the Cross Benches, thought that ““power would accrue”” to a reformed House. The right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Chelmsford—whom I am delighted to see in his place, representing the whole of the established Church of England, on which I congratulate him—said that belief in election, along with the powers as they currently are, is a ““delusion””. The noble Lord, Lord Forsyth, and my noble friend Lord MacKenzie of Culkein went further and suggested that an elected House of Lords would want to exercise more powers than the current House even theoretically has. The noble Lord, Lord Northbrook, wanted the House to have more powers anyway, I think even in the absence of elections. My noble friend Lord Sheldon suggested that the effect would be to lead to increased, even routine, use of the Parliament Acts. I suspect that those views, which are obviously widely shared throughout the House, are the pivot around which the debate eddied and flowed over the past two days, and I have three things to say with regard to them. First, while I completely accept that a substantial elected element requires us to revisit the conventions, it does not of itself lead to the undermining of Commons primacy. There may well be a demand for more power, and the conventions we currently have may well come under strain and might have to be further developed in the light of changing circumstances. That, however, is not the same as a rejection of Commons primacy. Several noble Lords referred to legitimacy coming from fitness for purpose. That principle applies also in the context of elections. Elections are for a purpose. We elect Members of the Commons to form a Government and to hold them to account. We elect Members of the European Parliament to consider and determine European legislation. We elect local councillors to exercise local powers. We elect Members of devolved Assemblies to exercise devolved powers. And we would elect Members of the Lords to exercise powers of scrutiny and revision. An electoral mandate is not open-ended; even Governments do not claim that. Yes, there would have to be changes in the conventions and in the way the two Houses work together, but the fundamentals would remain unchanged. The Commons would still form the Government, the Commons would still control supply and the Commons would still be able to use the Parliament Acts. Further, as my noble friend Lady Quin suggested, it would not be for this House to decide unilaterally that it could take further powers. Secondly, as I suggested, there is broad agreement that the House of Lords does a good job now and that its powers and the relationship with the Commons are in about the right place. The Government believe that further reform is necessary to ensure that any lack of legitimacy does not lead to the undermining of the respect and seriousness in which the views of this House are held. More legitimacy does not mean the same legitimacy as the Commons, as my noble friend Lord Whitty rightly said. Thirdly, as many noble Lords suggested, a more assertive House is not necessarily a bad thing. Indeed, as many noble Lords have hoped for, a more assertive House could strengthen Parliament. I agree with that. A reformed House of Lords could be more assertive without challenging Commons primacy, even if both Houses will in the future have to look afresh at the mechanisms for underpinning that primacy. I took note of the comments of those who referred to the conclusions of the Joint Committee—that the present conventions would hold only given the present composition of the House. The Government have already said they accept that changes to the composition of the Lords would call the current conventions into question, and that having brought forward those proposals for reform, there would inevitably have to be debate and evaluation about how the conventions might evolve. But there is a difference between looking at the conventions that underpin the House’s actions and looking at the fundamentals of the relationship between the two Houses. A more assertive House of Lords would strengthen Parliament as a whole by helping the Commons to hold the Executive to account. It should not and would not undermine the supremacy of the Commons just through election, particularly of only an element of the House. A majority of noble Lords spoke in favour of a fully appointed House. Many praised the speeches of the noble and learned Lords, Lord Irvine of Lairg and Lord Howe—two outstanding speeches in favour of an appointed House. They made a strong case for a fully appointed House—a reform and a change from the status quo, for the reasons that I have touched on, but something that would be similar to the House we have today. There is much to be said for a fully appointed House. It can deliver much of what we want from a second Chamber. However, the one thing that it cannot deliver is democratic legitimacy. That is the Government’s view, the view of the other place and the view of three important cross-party reports on Lords reform. Some noble Lords cited the views of the public on this. Some, like the noble Baroness, Lady Shephard, told us that their postbags were empty of letters on Lords reform. Some, like the noble Lord, Lord Tyler, referred to polls on the public’s view of Lords reform. Both fail to indicate the right course on this. Neither polls nor postbags determine the decisions. Parliament, and in particular our House, because it is the Lords, but also the Commons, have to make a judgment on what they think the right course on constitutional reform is. Without democratic legitimacy—