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House of Lords: Reform

My Lords, I am not sure to what the noble Lord is referring when he refers to the pledge. We are at a stage that is a long time before legislation. The Prime Minister, the Leader of the other place and I have said that we genuinely seek consensus. The search for consensus includes agreement not only between the parties but between the two Houses. With respect to the noble Lord, his question is utterly premature. The House as constituted does a good job but, as my noble friend Lord Whitty said, we need to raise our eyes sometimes from what it feels and looks like here in the House to what it feels and looks like to those outside. I agree with him that it is increasingly difficult for those outside and for the Commons to accept a wholly appointed body with the sort of powers that this House exercises. What sort of Chamber do we want to be? I have heard so many persuasive arguments in favour of the work that we do now and the role that we play now. For myself, I want a sustainable role as a revising Chamber. We can, with increasing confidence and authority, keep the consensus about our scrutinising, revising and delaying role, while changing the context that my noble and learned friend Lord Irvine referred to. Furthermore, the argument in principle for a wholly or partially elected House has been supported by a number of Peers, such as the noble Baronesses, Lady Whitaker and Lady Quin, and my noble friends Lord Hoyle and Lord Dubs. Some have argued that there is no need for elections to be held to this place because of the limited powers of this House. The noble Lord, Lord Monson, who is in his place, made that point. However, this House is powerful. It has a significant and vital role in making the laws that govern this country. I am pleased that this House often compels the other place to do things that it would rather not do. I am sure that, away from the heated debate, the other place is sometimes pleased about it too. The debate in this House has been marked by the relative absence of the argument that democracy is right in principle for a legislative Chamber, but it is surely a powerful argument. Those who make the laws should do so with the consent of those who are subject to those laws. I believe that that is right, and I believe that the Commons think that it is right. If possible, we should reflect that in our arrangements. Arguments were made for and against a hybrid House. The most powerful speech in favour was made by my noble friend Lord Richard. Many have argued that a hybrid House will not work, including my noble friend Lady Symons and the noble Lords, Lord Higgins and Lord Armstrong of Ilminster. The noble Lord, Lord Neill of Bladen, described the idea, somewhat graphically, as dead and decomposing. Some, such as the noble Lord, Lord Sheikh, and the noble Viscount, Lord Trenchard, dislike the idea because they believe that there would be competition between the different kinds of Members. The noble Viscount, Lord Tenby, said that he feared a them-and-us culture in a hybrid House. Several noble Lords were concerned that a hybrid House would be inherently unstable and lead, eventually and inevitably, to a wholly elected House. For example, the noble Lord, Lord Butler of Brockwell, having said that he did not favour a substantially elected element, argued that the problem was that once the unelected element began regularly to swing the vote against the elected element we would eventually arrive at a wholly elected House. The right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Chester made a similar point. One of the defenders of hybridity was the noble Lord, Lord Soley, who made a speech late last night, and so was insufficiently recognised for it. He argued that a number of other countries such as India and France had hybrid Houses but had not drifted towards fully elected Chambers. Others pointed out the value that a hybrid House could bring. Many identified the benefits of having Cross-Benchers and Bishops in a reformed House with an elected element. That is only possible in a hybrid House. Many noble Lords made the point that the conventions of this House and the manner in which it conducts its business now are signs that all Members will be treated equally in a reformed House. My noble friend Lord Giddens spoke in favour of a hybrid House. Several noble Lords suggested that the House had always been hybrid, including the noble and right reverend Lord, Lord Harries of Pentregarth, and the noble and learned Lord, Lord Lloyd of Berwick. I was intrigued by the reference by the noble Lord, Lord Haskel, to the same argument against hybridity having been mounted in 1958, when the life Peers were introduced. Those of us who have been here with both hereditary and life Peers have not found the problem. A hybrid House could combine the best of what we have—expertise, experience, non-party membership—with the benefits of election. It allows greater diversity and to make the reforms we need if our work is to continue to be respected outside this House. The vote for an all-elected second Chamber in the Commons was highly significant, as noble Lords including the noble Lords, Lord McNally, Lord Lucas and Lord Wallace of Saltaire, pointed out. It shows an appetite in the other place for significant and far-reaching reform. I have already set out the arguments in this place for having a democratic element in this House. Some of the consequences of a fully elected House of Lords have been pointed out by many noble Lords in the debate—no Bishops, no Cross Benches, a lack of expertise, more clashes with the Commons, more appetite for exercising power and for getting more power. The noble Baroness, Lady Knight of Collingtree, was concerned that the distracting effect of constituency responsibilities on elected Members would mean that the House would not have the time to undertake its proper function of scrutiny. Although entertaining, she slightly overstated the case. We do not propose that elected Members undertake the sort of constituency business that she referred to, and the electoral system that we proposed was designed to minimise the temptation on them to indulge themselves in that way.