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Afghanistan

My Lords, I am extremely grateful to both noble Lords for their intelligent interrogation of the Statement. I agree with everything that they have said in paying tribute not only to those who have lost their lives and to their families but also to those who have been wounded in Afghanistan. I do not believe that the objectives that we set out with in 2001 have changed. We are trying to ensure that the Taliban cannot be returned to power and that we deny al-Qaeda a physical base in Afghanistan. The good news is that the people of Afghanistan have voted in their democratic elections and that there will be more national and provincial elections in the future. We see a fledgling democracy at work in that country, which is very important. We are realistic about what we are seeking to do. The noble Lord, Lord McNally, is right to ensure that we have a calm perspective on what we are seeking to achieve in Afghanistan. I pay tribute to all 38 countries that are working with us and undertaking a variety of different tasks. Some, like Canada, have troops on the ground and others have provided expertise and back-up support in a headquarters focus. We are working as a team but that does not mean, as both noble Lords have indicated, that we should not do more to try to ensure that other partners play their part in the work in Afghanistan. I also agree with what has been said about Pakistan where we hope that the situation is improving. There are 2,600 miles of border between Pakistan and Afghanistan, which raises huge issues about the practicalities of policing the border. There are perhaps even more important issues about the way in which neighbours have to work together on the border issues, directly for the national governments and directly for the localities near the borders. It is true that Iran needs to play its part. My right honourable friend the Secretary of State for Defence is optimistic—that has been made clear to me in my discussions with him—about how far the Afghan national army has come since his last visit and certainly since his very first visit some 18 months ago. He described it to me as being rather like night and day, but that does not mean that there is not a lot more to do. The development of the Afghan national army is extremely important to the future. I agree with much of what has been said about ensuring that we are working effectively in that country. I hope we will all agree that it is important to continue with that project. Over time, we must evaluate how long we will need to be there. On a very specific area, the model that we are following for the eradication of the narcotics trade is based on experience, particularly in countries such as Thailand, where noble Lords will be aware that it took 15 years to ensure that that trade was eradicated. That feels like a long time in some ways but in other ways it seems like a very short time. There is the eight-pronged approach by the Afghan Government to try to tackle the narcotics trade, which ranges from high-profile moves towards bringing to justice those who take part in the trade through to the programme of eradication on the ground and the opportunities for alternatives. In Helmand province, for example, which is an incredibly fertile area, it is very important to try to ensure that farmers grow other crops. That needs to be done in a diverse way rather than simply thinking about one alternative. It is also very important to provide the security for the future that will enable people to make real choices about their lives. As for the money being spent, the overall defence budget is 2.3 per cent of GDP by 2010. That does not include the spending on operations in Iraq and Afghanistan. The Treasury reserve has provided £6.6 billion since 2001. I do not have with me the breakdown between the two countries. I am more than happy to supply that to the noble Lord, Lord Strathclyde, and to put a copy in the Library but it is being funded from the reserve. It is important, too, that we look at the moves that have been made forward since 2001 in a country that had 30 years of Soviet occupation and Taliban rule, both in terms of democratic elections and the importance of the military presence, and also in terms of trying to work with civil society to develop health, education and economic growth. The successes outlined in the Statement, not least for the women and children of Afghanistan, point to that. Some of the practical points in the Statement about the loans and grants that can be made available to support fledgling enterprise in all of the provinces of Afghanistan will be very important too. It is important that we try to increase security to deal with the insurgents—the Taliban is a generic name that covers people who, for a whole variety of reasons, are involved in violence—and to ensure that, as President Karzai has made clear, those who renounce violence and support the constitution can move into a more normal form of life within Afghan society. We must provide the underpinning to enable economic growth to take place. Those are the factors that will lead to success in Afghanistan but we must realise that this is difficult and that we have a longer term commitment. We cannot put a timescale on it for obvious reasons but we must provide the support for the people that noble Lords would wish to see.