---

Child Maintenance and Other Payments Bill

I also saw the nods and I saw the frown when I was quoting the letter from memory, which is always dangerous on these occasions. I am not encouraged by what the noble and learned Baroness, Lady Butler-Sloss, has just said about mediation centres, but I was interested in what the Minister said about child centres being built around the country. There is also the opportunity to use various voluntary organisations and, I assume, Citizens Advice would fit into this too, which would not exist without government subsidy. It is virtually entirely paid for by the Government. I think we agree that face-to-face bears no relation to phone-to-phone. There is no doubt about that. Ventura has been doing an advice service for the Pension Service for some time and I understand that the Pension Service is more than happy with the advice that it is giving. Is it not true to say that pension credit take-up, although it has improved slightly recently, is nothing that the Government can write home about? One would have thought that part of Ventura’s remit would be to encourage that. However, I leave that for another day when we will have many happy hours discussing pensions in the fairly near future.