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Regulatory Enforcement and Sanctions Bill [HL]

My Lords, I have not attempted to intervene very often in this debate, largely because, like the Minister, I assumed that we would get through by 10 o’clock, but I am afraid that there is clearly no possibility of that. Whether we will get through by any 10 o’clock remains in the hands of others. From these Benches, I endorse the remarks of the noble Lord, Lord Borrie. What we have sat through in Committee in the Moses Room and on Report is significant ideological opposition to the Macrory principles coming from the noble and learned Lord, Lord Lyell. He is perfectly entitled to his view and it is a pity that he did not express his view at Second Reading, which would have been the appropriate point, because he fundamentally disagrees with this Bill. His problem is that he keeps trying to amend it to make it better. I know that he is going to meet the Minister, but I predict that his meetings with whichever Minister or Ministers will not result in any resolution of his ideological objection to the Bill. Fundamentally, what the noble and learned Lord wants, as the noble Lord, Lord Borrie, suggested, is that all these matters be referred to the lawyers and the courts. The Bill cannot deal with that. Either the Bill is defeated at Third Reading or it must be accepted, because we cannot keep trying to amend it as the noble and learned Lord suggests. Taking one point made by the noble Lord, Lord Borrie, forget 40 years of operation of tribunals, which of course there has been, the pass has been massively sold in the creation of the FSA, which has been given huge powers. No one from any part of your Lordships' House suggests that the powers given to the FSA should be curtailed—that in some way judges or magistrates should be brought into the operation of the FSA. So the cat is long out of the bag on trying to roll back to only judges or only magistrates’ courts being able to deal with such matters. I have a lot of sympathy what the noble and learned Lord, Lord Lyell, is saying—I do not agree with him, but I have sympathy with his view—but he will not achieve what he wants by trying to emasculate the Bill with his amendments. The appropriate thing would be to get to Third Reading and test the opinion of the House on whether we agree with him and his views.