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Health and Social Care Bill

moved Amendment No. 111: 111: Clause 88, page 43, line 8, after second ““the”” insert ““trustees of the”” The noble Baroness said: I shall speak also to Amendment No. 112. These amendments echo the confusion evident in our debates on Clauses 29 and 30 about exactly who is deemed to be responsible when offences take place. They have been tabled separately because this clause applies solely to charitable bodies—I believe that that is the case when we talk about unincorporated associations. Before I get down to the specific detail, I want to ask a broad question. Can the noble Baroness explain to the Committee what sort of unincorporated association she believes would be likely to be undertaking regulated services? I assume that she means small residential establishments and so on. The two detailed questions I want to ask are reflected in the amendments. First, the clause appears, for the purposes of offences under this Bill, to treat unincorporated associations as though they are in fact corporate bodies. I want to ensure that we are not overriding some of the basic tenets of charity law in this legislation. I quite understand that it is not the members of the association whom the Government want to be criminalised, but I should have thought that the trustees of the association should bear responsibility. My second point is about payment of fines. I quite understand that the Government may want to enable unincorporated associations to pay fines from their charitable funds if that were deemed to be appropriate. I do not quite understand why they want to insist on that, rather than leaving it to be judged case-by-case, where it would be evident whether the offence had happened because of the deliberate policy as determined by the trustees of the association or as a result of an action of an employee in contravention of the trustees’ policies. That is the sort of issue that normally arises with charities. I do not quite see how what the Government are trying to do is consistent with the tenets of charity law. I seek clarification on that. I beg to move.