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Climate Change Bill [Lords]

My right hon. Friend is absolutely right. Of course we must aim for a lower carbon economy in this country; of course we must reduce our own carbon use. However, I agree with my hon. Friend the Member for South Suffolk (Mr. Yeo), the Chairman of the Environmental Audit Committee, that it is not enough for Britain to meet its target when we produce just 2 per cent. of the world's carbon dioxide. Unless we do something for China, India and the developing countries, they are not going to sign up to lower carbon emissions. It is a long time since I negotiated with Environment Ministers from those countries and perhaps the mood has changed, but I suspect that many of them still regard the climate change debate as a western plot to hold them back. They are certainly not going to meet the targets that we are imposing on ourselves, but that is not to say that we in Britain should not accept those targets. Of course we should show leadership, but let us be in no doubt that many of the largest polluters—not even to mention the United States—are not going to accept the targets set out in the Bill. We must have a valid carbon trading credit mechanism and it is crucial for it to be sustainable. There is so much more that we can do to help the developing world by carbon trading so that we can keep the essential biodiversity that we need. I am not going to enter into arguments with my hon. Friends about whether the Amundsen sea embayment is retreating at 1 m or 0.7 m a year. Clearly, there is a serious depletion of ice in both the Arctic and Antarctic ice caps. I will leave others to argue whether it is temporary and whether it is caused by sunspots or by CO2 emissions. What concerns me is that we are clearly losing our rain forests; we are losing the lungs of the earth, and we should be doing much more to ensure that we keep them. I would be perfectly happy if, in order to keep those rain forests, we needed to help by forcing our big companies to cut back on some of their carbon emissions—and if they cannot cut back more than a certain level, there should be a carbon trading credit scheme so that money is given directly to the parts of the world with the rain forests. I had no idea how serious was the loss of rain forest in Papua New Guinea. Why does it matter if that country loses its rain forests? Could it not plant date palms instead? Well, Papua New Guinea has between 6 and 8 per cent. of the world's biodiversity. Yes, we can show emotive pictures of polar bears struggling to find icebergs to sit on, but my key worry is not so much for the polar bears as for the bumble bees. If we were to lose some of the less cuddly species such as insects that pollinate, one day, the world would actually starve. We are heading for world food shortages and goodness knows how that is going to pan out. I had the privilege of meeting the Secretary of State to discuss this matter recently; he was kindly meeting many colleagues from all political parties. I was impressed with how he was switched on to this item. I hope that he makes a speedy recovery. In addition to building measures on climate change into the Bill, we have a golden opportunity to tackle the problems of loss of biodiversity and to make for a more sustainable agriculture throughout the world. These are not matters that I can deal with in a Second Reading speech today, but the Bill does not preclude them. I would like to explore further with the Government, perhaps on Report, what other matters they intend to take into account in clauses 11 and 13. The proposals and policies must, taken as a whole, be such as to contribute to sustainable development—and I understand that to mean sustainable development throughout the world, not just in the UK. I hope that we are able to explore the Government's intentions further at that stage. Yes, it is vital to do all the things that the Bill provides for, but we must also keep an eye on the rest of the world. In the 30 seconds left to me, let me say that this Bill is too important to allow it to be polluted by policies on waste reduction and recycling that are to be implemented by five target councils in the country. Too many of my constituents and I are getting a bit cynical about the policies of recycling. We do not mind doing the council's dirty work for it—I do not mind recycling by putting my plastic in one box and my glass in another—but I do not expect to pay the same community charge without getting a better service. I am happy to recycle everything, including polystyrene, but if we are to go down that route, local authorities must not charge us for things that they cannot do themselves.