---

Public Accounts

I agree that that is precisely what needs to happen. At the suggestion of hon. Members at the previous occasion when we held this debate, I agreed to write to every permanent secretary asking them to look at the Committee's report on Jobcentre Plus and act accordingly. That is the kind of thing that I can do as a Minister who is not directly responsible for day-to-day management decisions in a Department. I also know that there is a great deal of awareness at the permanent secretary level of the success that has been enjoyed in this instance. I want to respond to the questions that the hon. Member for Southport (Dr. Pugh) asked the out-of-hours contract and the Hegelian dialectic. We had revolution from the hon. Member for Gainsborough and an Hegelian synthesis from the hon. Member for Southport. As always, this is an interesting time to debate the Public Accounts Committee's reports, and we are even adding a dash of philosophy just to keep ourselves more interested. The hon. Gentleman asked about the out-of-hours contract. He is right that the new contract initially pushed up GPs' pay, but since then costs have been held back to achieve compensatory savings. More importantly, Health Ministers now have much better control of doctors' pay. They commission services and get what they pay for, which is value for public money. Despite a wobbly start, the overall impact of the changes has been positive, now that there have been further shifts. I welcome the hon. Member for Harwich (Mr. Carswell) as a new member of the Committee. He has been called a zealot by my hon. Friend the Member for Glasgow, South-West (Mr. Davidson). The hon. Member for Harwich expresses himself with a great deal of ideological certainty and belief. I am sure there will be many vigorous debates and moments of conflict and clash on a Committee that is not usually known for that kind of approach. I know that the hon. Gentleman will enjoy his time on the Public Accounts Committee, as those of us who have been fortunate enough to serve on it in the past inevitably do. I welcome him for the first time to these debates and I certainly hope that it will not be the last time he contributes to our debates as provocatively as he wishes to. My hon. Friend the Member for Glasgow, South-West commented on the number of senior Treasury civil servants who have Oxbridge and public school backgrounds. I have to admit that I do not know the answer. I was interested in what my hon. Friend had to say about it and I will look further into the responses he received to his letter and see whether we can get him a more forthcoming one. [Interruption.] I was just about to say that it should not be assumed that just because my hon. Friend the Member for Glasgow, South-West has a particular view of people with public school or indeed Oxbridge backgrounds, there must be something wrong with those people. Speaking as an ex-member of St. John's college, Oxford—actually, I am sure that one is a member of St. John's for life—I certainly have many happy memories of it. [Interruption.] Yes, I am sure that the hon. Member for Rutland and Melton (Alan Duncan) does, too, but perhaps the less said about that the better! My hon. Friend the Member for Glasgow, South-West raised two further points. He asked about the 40th report, which is on the management of expenditure by the Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs. I hope I can reassure my hon. Friend that since the report was published, we have seen systematic monthly reporting of the Department's financial position to the management board and a new system of portfolio management through senior responsible owners of programmes. There is a refreshed financial management improvement project, which is delivering more effective and focused financial management across DEFRA, including of relationships with the delivery agents. Many might think that that should have been in place as a matter of course, but we can at least be relieved that it is in place now. My hon. Friend also asked about the report on the Revenue and Customs Prosecutions Office. He is right that the system as described was open to exploitation. He did not complete the story, however, as the accounting officer has instituted a new system of control and achieved enormous improvements in efficiency in respect of public spending since that difficult start, which the hon. Member for Tiverton and Honiton also mentioned. The hon. Member for South Norfolk asked about the Fulton report and the appropriate balance between generalist and operational effectiveness and experience in the civil service. I suspect that this is a slightly less class-confrontational way of getting at the same issue raised by my hon. Friend the Member for Glasgow, South-West in his efforts to find out the educational background and experience of top-flight civil servants. As change management and the experience of delivering change in already complex existing organisations goes higher up the scale in terms of the Government's requirements, it becomes increasingly important for senior civil servants responsible for managing Departments in new and fresher ways to look into this balance. The hon. Member for South Norfolk has hit on an issue that ought to be thought about a great deal more than perhaps it has been. Settlements such as Fulton and Northcote-Trevelyan—which is another, even older one—still influence the civil service. We need to look at all those things in the light of the 21st century, rather than the 19th. He makes perfectly reasonable observations. I want to say a few things about some of the more technical issues that have been mentioned, perhaps in passing. I am happy to announce that the last piece of the jigsaw in the Government implementing our response to Lord Sharman's report on audit and accountability in central Government is now in place. Hon. Members will be aware that, until recently, the Comptroller and Auditor General was not eligible to audit non-departmental public body companies, but provisions in the Companies Act 2006 clear the way for him to do so with effect from financial year 2008-09. There are separate provisions for profit-making and non-profit-making companies, but happily they are now in place. The Comptroller and Auditor General now has public audit responsibility for 26 non-profit-making NDPB companies. I understand that 24 companies, which are either profit making or have profit-making subsidiaries, have also agreed to come under the auspices of the Comptroller and Auditor General for audit purposes. I share the Committee's disappointment—this is a point that the Chairman of the Committee brought to our attention in his opening comments—that the implementation of the new governance arrangements for the National Audit Office has been delayed, along with the constitutional renewal Bill. However, the Public Accounts Commission has seen the draft provisions in near final form and the Treasury is ready to proceed as soon as a decision is taken on the Bill's timing. I welcome other progress in this area, such as the appointment of Sir Andrew Likierman as the new chair of the National Audit Office and of Mr. Amyas Morse as the new Comptroller and Auditor General. The hon. Member for Gainsborough told us about the selection panel, which he chaired, and expressed his confidence in the choice that has been made. The formal appointment of Mr. Morse will follow, through a motion in Parliament. I am glad that he can take up his appointment on 1 June. I was interested to read the transcript of the first ever pre-appointment hearing that the Committee has held. The Committee gauged Mr. Morse's views on a wide range of issues. I note that he has ambitions for the NAO in improving the efficiency, cost efficiency and functional efficiency of government. We share those ambitions and I welcome the fact that Mr. Morse wants to work with Departments and the Treasury to progress that. Progress and a push from the NAO, as well as from the Treasury, have a good record in achieving change, which we all wish to see. Our Green Paper, "The Governance of Britain", explained that the Government would simplify our reporting to Parliament by bringing together the processes for planning, parliamentary approval and reporting of public spending on a more consistent basis. I hope that that responds to some of the worries expressed by the hon. Member for Harwich, and it recognises the point made by the hon. Member for Southport about what are known as the "clear line of sight" changes, or the alignment review. We made it clear that the Government would consult widely on the detailed changes needed to implement what is a major reform of parliamentary scrutiny, which is designed to make the system of Government finance easier to understand and operate, and to improve Government accountability to the House. On 28 February, my right hon. Friend the Chief Secretary to the Treasury wrote to the hon. Member for Gainsborough and the Chairs of a number of other House Committees, drawing their attention to the parliamentary memorandum—which was published on 5 March as a Command Paper, Cm. 7567—setting out our formal proposals for achieving better alignment between budgets, estimates and accounts. The proposals in the memorandum will result in a simpler system, with a single set of numbers, which is more transparent, more comprehensive and easier to use. It will improve public debate and understanding through enhanced parliamentary scrutiny of Government. I believe that the proposals are fully consistent with Parliament's wishes. We would welcome Parliament's agreement to the detailed proposal by the summer recess, so that we can start implementing the new arrangements from 2010-11. In closing, I again pay tribute to the work of the Committee, which proves its value every time it sits, and demonstrates its value in these debates. On behalf of the Government, I also thank Tim Burr, as the hon. Member for Gainsborough quite properly did in his opening remarks. Mr. Burr has displayed impressive abilities as Comptroller and Auditor General, not least because he took on the role on an interim basis pending the appointment of a successor. He commands the respect of the Government, and all in the House, as he has guided and led the National Audit Office through that period of transition. We need the National Audit Office to hold the Government to account, and Mr. Burr is courageous in ensuring that that continues. I wish him well for the future. We all know that the National Audit Office and Public Accounts Committee together provide a valuable public service. We have seen evidence of that again today, if we doubted it. Improvements have been made, and as always in this continuous revolution—to use the words of the Committee Chairman—there is scope for even more improvement. I hope and believe that we will see that in future.