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Debate on bill and Committee of the Whole House (HC) on Wednesday, 2 November 2005, in the House of Commons.

Terrorism Bill

Terrorism Bill. Committee stage first day. Clauses 1-4 agreed to. Clause 23 as amended agreed to. Clause 24 agreed to.

Secondary information

Type
Parliamentary proceeding
Reference
438 c832-938, (corrigendum) 439 c448;438 c832-938 
Session
2005-06
Department
Home Office
Legislative stage
Committee stage
Chamber / Committee
House of Commons chamber
Related items
Terrorism Bill. Explanatory notes Bill 55-EN also published.
Wednesday, 12 October 2005
Bills
House of Commons
Corrections
Wednesday, 9 November 2005
Parliamentary proceedings
House of Commons
Proceeding contributions
Chair of Committees of the Whole House | 438 c873 (Link to this contribution) Order. The hon. Gentleman must not use that word: I ask him to withdraw it immediately.
Viscount Hailsham | 438 c836 (Link to this contribution) It is even less reassuring when we contemplate that in respect of overseas terrorism it is the Attor...
Show all contributions (320)
Dominic Grieve | 438 c836 (Link to this contribution) My right hon. and learned Friend makes a good point.
Alex Salmond | 438 c836 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Gentleman is making a very good speech. Does he understand why the phraseology in subsectio...
Dominic Grieve | 438 c836-7 (Link to this contribution) No, I have not. Furthermore, if the hon. Gentleman were to consult the explanatory notes, he would b...
Elfyn Llwyd | 438 c837 (Link to this contribution) I agree entirely with the hon. Gentleman’s line of thought, and I remind the Committee that if the...
Dominic Grieve | 438 c837 (Link to this contribution) I agree with the hon. Gentleman and knowing of his background in practising the law, I can see exact...
Viscount Hailsham | 438 c837 (Link to this contribution) Is not my hon. Friend being a bit too generous to the Government on this point? My understanding of ...
Dominic Grieve | 438 c837 (Link to this contribution) Yes, my right hon. and learned Friend is correct and, as I hope I indicated, I want to move on to co...
John Bercow | 438 c837 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to my hon. Friend for generously giving way again. Surely, the nub of the problem is ...
Dominic Grieve | 438 c837-8 (Link to this contribution) My hon. Friend makes a good point. Equally, it is right to point out that we quite frequently have t...
Viscount Hailsham | 438 c850 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Gentleman says that the subsection does not add anything. What he means, surely, is that it...
Alistair Carmichael | 438 c850 (Link to this contribution) That is true. When I said that the subsection did not add anything, I meant that it did not add anyt...
Alistair Carmichael | 438 c851 (Link to this contribution) That is but one of the many mistakes that we might identify in that speech. My recollection is that ...
Robert Marshall-Andrews | 438 c847 (Link to this contribution) The extraterrestrial aspect had not occurred to me. With great respect, I have a wide-ranging view o...
Gerald Howarth | 438 c847 (Link to this contribution) The hon. and learned Gentleman and my hon. Friend the Member for Beaconsfield (Mr. Grieve) have made...
Robert Marshall-Andrews | 438 c847-8 (Link to this contribution) If I can employ a well-known legal term, the answer that the hon. Gentleman has been getting is abso...
Alistair Carmichael | 438 c848-50 (Link to this contribution) Let me first offer a few words of reassurance to the hon. and learned Member for Medway (Mr. Marshal...
Elfyn Llwyd | 438 c847 (Link to this contribution) When the hon. and learned Gentleman began, he said that the old-fashioned offence of incitement woul...
Robert Marshall-Andrews | 438 c846-7 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful for the cornucopia of examples with which I am being showered, all of which are absolu...
Viscount Hailsham | 438 c853 (Link to this contribution) Does the hon. Gentleman agree that there is a curious paradox here, in that on the one hand, it appe...
Viscount Hailsham | 438 c852 (Link to this contribution) What the hon. Gentleman says about literature is entirely right, but does he not agree that precisel...
Alan Simpson | 438 c852-3 (Link to this contribution) I completely accept that point, which was also made by my hon. and learned Friend the Member for Med...
Jon Trickett | 438 c852 (Link to this contribution) : Had I read out a passage from ““Homage to Catalonia””, I would have chosen precisely the one that ...
Alan Simpson | 438 c852 (Link to this contribution) That is absolutely true, and it is precisely the reason why I and other Members from all parts of th...
Elfyn Llwyd | 438 c852 (Link to this contribution) ““Homage to Catalonia”” was on the book list when I was doing my A-levels at Llanrwst school. It is ...
Alan Simpson | 438 c852 (Link to this contribution) He did, and perhaps that book also encourages and incites resistance to tyrannical regimes.
Alan Simpson | 438 c851-2 (Link to this contribution) The opening paragraph begins in a fairly straightforward way:"““In the Lenin Barracks in Barcelona, ...
Alistair Carmichael | 438 c851 (Link to this contribution) Indeed, and my own views on Burma are on the record, as are the hon. Gentleman’s. The real difficult...
John Bercow | 438 c851 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Gentleman is right: the benefit of hindsight is very great indeed. But even if one does not...
Alex Salmond | 438 c853 (Link to this contribution) : The President would then be fighting a legal war—unlike the one that his son pursued—but, given th...
Alan Simpson | 438 c853-5 (Link to this contribution) That highlights the paradoxes and absurdities in the Bill. A couple of weeks ago Parliament added t...
Lord Clarke of Nottingham | 438 c855 (Link to this contribution) I strongly disapprove of some of the shocking statements made by extremist preachers in recent years...
Viscount Hailsham | 438 c856 (Link to this contribution) Will my right hon. and learned Friend give way?
John Denham | 438 c853 (Link to this contribution) Does my hon. Friend recall the first President Bush, at the end of the first Gulf war, urging the Ir...
Alan Simpson | 438 c853 (Link to this contribution) Indeed, that is a paradox. We seem to have drifted into the dreadful position whereby over the past ...
Alan Simpson | 438 c853 (Link to this contribution) Indeed, there are considerations that might make me think again about the unexpected virtues to be f...
Elfyn Llwyd | 438 c860-1 (Link to this contribution) I am obliged to you, Mr. Forth. I rise to speak to amendments Nos. 62 and 63, both of which stand i...
Lord Mann | 438 c861 (Link to this contribution) Is the hon. Gentleman saying that the points made by other hon. Members in relation to George Orwell...
Peter Bone | 438 c860 (Link to this contribution) I was just trying to say that there are better ways to approach the issue than to attack the freedom...
Chair of Committees of the Whole House | 438 c860 (Link to this contribution) Order. Before I call the next speaker, it might help the Committee if I say that the winding-up spee...
Elfyn Llwyd | 438 c861 (Link to this contribution) I believe that, under existing legislation, inviting support for a proscribed terrorist organisation...
Lord Clarke of Nottingham | 438 c857 (Link to this contribution) As my hon. Friend says, such people are offered paradise as an inducement to commit an act of terror...
Chair of Committees of the Whole House | 438 c860 (Link to this contribution) Order. This is a wide set of amendments, but the hon. Gentleman is going even wider. Will he please ...
Peter Bone | 438 c859-60 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to be called to speak in this highly important debate on proposals that, if they were ...
Lord Clarke of Nottingham | 438 c857-9 (Link to this contribution) I shall come to that in a moment, but for now I want to endorse what has been said by my hon. Frie...
Viscount Hailsham | 438 c857 (Link to this contribution) The argument is that the Attorney-General would not allow that.
Dominic Grieve | 438 c839 (Link to this contribution) If, for example, I had said in a public speech to a community of Bosnians in this country at the t...
Sally Keeble | 438 c839 (Link to this contribution) Expressing views about the ANC is far removed from the clause—[Hon. Members: ““No, it is not.””] It ...
Dominic Grieve | 438 c840 (Link to this contribution) I understand the hon. Lady’s point, but it is adequately covered by clause 1(1), which we have jus...
Sally Keeble | 438 c839 (Link to this contribution) That is a red herring. My reading of the clause is that it covers someone who stands in front an aud...
Dominic Grieve | 438 c838-9 (Link to this contribution) I understand the hon. Gentleman’s point—I have been trying to deal with it for the past 20 minutes. ...
Chris Bryant | 438 c838 (Link to this contribution) I wonder whether I may tease the hon. Gentleman a little further along that line. I believe he acc...
Dominic Grieve | 438 c839 (Link to this contribution) Indeed. I simply do not understand what the Government are trying to achieve. If an act of glorifica...
Dominic Grieve | 438 c838 (Link to this contribution) I understand my hon. Friend’s point, but the amendment covers ““a specific terrorist act””. If the B...
Richard Shepherd | 438 c838 (Link to this contribution) I have a question about paragraph (c) of the amendment:"““it is not necessary that the prosecution...
Dominic Grieve | 438 c841 (Link to this contribution) The right hon. Gentleman is quite right. One difficulty is that the discussion on the definition of ...
John Denham | 438 c841 (Link to this contribution) Is not the problem that, in the example given by my hon. and learned Friend the Member for Medway ...
Dominic Grieve | 438 c841 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Gentleman is right. It is impossible to understand what the Government are trying to do, ex...
Alex Salmond | 438 c840 (Link to this contribution) : That is exactly the point. The hon. Lady seems to be oblivious to the fact that if she had made th...
Sally Keeble | 438 c840 (Link to this contribution) I am at a great disadvantage here because I am not a lawyer, but a comparable example might be when ...
Dominic Grieve | 438 c840 (Link to this contribution) The hon. and learned Gentleman has given a perfect example. The statement would be caught by clause ...
Dominic Grieve | 438 c840 (Link to this contribution) My right hon. and learned Friend is right. The fact that one is invoking historical figures is no re...
Dominic Grieve | 438 c843 (Link to this contribution) I agree. On academic treatises, it is quite common, particularly in philosophy departments, to ask u...
Dominic Grieve | 438 c841 (Link to this contribution) Indeed, and pregnant with disaster, if the Government get it wrong. It will not be adequate to fall ...
Dominic Grieve | 438 c841-2 (Link to this contribution) Yes, the hon. Gentleman is right. There are often accusations that the application or interpretation...
Robert Smith | 438 c841 (Link to this contribution) Does this exchange not reinforce the hon. Gentleman’s earlier point that the second part of clause 1...
Dominic Grieve | 438 c842 (Link to this contribution) If it is not a separate offence, why is it there? What is the point of having clause 1(2) unless the...
Chris Bryant | 438 c842 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Gentleman said something earlier with which I wholly agree, namely that many Members on bot...
Dominic Grieve | 438 c842 (Link to this contribution) I can envisage circumstances in which people might wish to glorify past events. We are talking about...
Alistair Carmichael | 438 c842 (Link to this contribution) Can the hon. Gentleman think of many circumstances in which an act could be interpreted as glorifica...
Robert Marshall-Andrews | 438 c845 (Link to this contribution) The right hon. and learned Gentleman has, as always, anticipated a great deal of what I am going to ...
Viscount Hailsham | 438 c845 (Link to this contribution) Taking the proviso of the director, while that prevents a prosecution from being started, it does no...
Robert Marshall-Andrews | 438 c844-5 (Link to this contribution) I want to speak to the amendments that stand in my name and the names of others. I can deal with the...
Dominic Grieve | 438 c843-4 (Link to this contribution) The Minister shakes her head in disapproval, but that is what the Bill currently says and there is n...
Robert Marshall-Andrews | 438 c846 (Link to this contribution) I have done so, and I am grateful to my hon. Friend. Undoubtedly, the dissemination of those works w...
Jon Trickett | 438 c846 (Link to this contribution) My hon. and learned Friend might be coming on to deal with great works of literature. I am thinking,...
Robert Marshall-Andrews | 438 c846 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Gentleman is right. That is the horrendously, deliberately and expressly wide nature of thi...
Lord Boswell of Aynho | 438 c845-6 (Link to this contribution) I have much sympathy with what the hon. and learned Gentleman is saying. Can he clarify for the be...
Dominic Grieve | 438 c832 (Link to this contribution) I beg to move amendment No. 79, in page 1, line 8, leave out paragraph (b) and insert—
Dominic Grieve | 438 c833-4 (Link to this contribution) Our consideration begins with clause 1, which provides the offence of the encouragement of terrori...
Chair of Committees of the Whole House | 438 c832-3 (Link to this contribution) With this it will be convenient to discuss the following amendments: No. 18, in page 1, line 9, lea...
Dominic Grieve | 438 c834 (Link to this contribution) My hon. Friend makes a good point. The clause is indeed unclear as regards members of the public. ...
John Bercow | 438 c834 (Link to this contribution) Part of the problem in this breathtakingly badly drafted clause is that the Government do not specif...
Dominic Grieve | 438 c835 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Gentleman is absolutely right and anticipates one of the things that I was about to say. Th...
Dominic Grieve | 438 c835 (Link to this contribution) My hon. Friend, very properly, muddies the waters even further by illustrating the complexity of the...
Martin Horwood | 438 c835 (Link to this contribution) As the hon. Member for Buckingham (Mr. Bercow) suggested, this might happen inadvertently in less th...
Lord Boswell of Aynho | 438 c834-5 (Link to this contribution) As a relatively new reader of the details of the Bill, it seems to me that the distinction is betw...
Dominic Grieve | 438 c836 (Link to this contribution) It certainly is not, because it is not the business of Parliament to create law that is discretionar...
Dominic Grieve | 438 c836 (Link to this contribution) It was a long time ago but the powers of the state have if anything increased since then, and not di...
Hazel Blears | 438 c873 (Link to this contribution) I will not give way to the hon. Gentleman. I want to deal with the points made by my hon. and learn...
Richard Burden | 438 c872 (Link to this contribution) I will not name the Member because she is not here. She said:"““It recognises that her statement was...
Hazel Blears | 438 c872 (Link to this contribution) I do not accept what my hon. Friend says. Let me turn the safeguards in the Bill.
Elfyn Llwyd | 438 c873 (Link to this contribution) On a point of order, Mr. Forth. I believe that the Minister, whether intentionally or not, has misle...
Hazel Blears | 438 c872 (Link to this contribution) We have heard some fanciful suggestions this afternoon—historians writing about the 19th-century str...
Chair of Committees of the Whole House | 438 c872 (Link to this contribution) Order. Interventions must be brief. Will the hon. Gentleman come very quickly to his point?
Hazel Blears | 438 c872 (Link to this contribution) I will not give way to the hon. Gentleman, who will have the opportunity to wind up the debate.
Lord Clarke of Nottingham | 438 c874 (Link to this contribution) The Minister is as close we have got so far to an explanation of why the Cherie Blair remark would n...
Hazel Blears | 438 c874 (Link to this contribution) Not at all. I do not propose to repeat myself; I have enough points to make already. I am surprised ...
Elfyn Llwyd | 438 c873 (Link to this contribution) The Minister has given the wrong impression of the offence in clause 1. She said that the offence wa...
Chair of Committees of the Whole House | 438 c873 (Link to this contribution) That is patently not a point of order, but the hon. Gentleman got it in.
Hazel Blears | 438 c873 (Link to this contribution) In everything that I have said so far I have referred to ““knows or believes”” or ““has reasonable...
John Bercow | 438 c873 (Link to this contribution) The atmosphere must have somehow spoiled the right hon. Lady’s judgment. Although I do not take it t...
Hazel Blears | 438 c873-4 (Link to this contribution) I do not accept that the matter is as clear-cut as the hon. Gentleman would like to portray it. He w...
Hazel Blears | 438 c871-2 (Link to this contribution) It is difficult to draw the line on what people may or may not do. Nothing in the Bill will prev...
Adrian Bailey | 438 c872 (Link to this contribution) We have heard some examples today where it was implied that somebody expressing sympathy and under...
Hazel Blears | 438 c870 (Link to this contribution) I will give way to the hon. Gentleman, but I am disappointed that he has not been in Committee for t...
Boris Johnson | 438 c871 (Link to this contribution) The Minister is most unfair, because I have sat through 95 per cent. of this afternoon’s proceedin...
Hazel Blears | 438 c871 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Gentleman is a very conspicuous character, so if he had been in Committee for 95 per cent. ...
Hazel Blears | 438 c870 (Link to this contribution) I have listened carefully to all the contributions to this afternoon’s debate, which has been fascin...
Richard Shepherd | 438 c870 (Link to this contribution) What about the question of intent, which was raised on Second Reading as well as today? The Governme...
Hazel Blears | 438 c870 (Link to this contribution) I shall deal with that issue in detail and hope to convince hon. Members that it is a matter not of ...
David Winnick | 438 c905 (Link to this contribution) I want to speak to the amendments tabled by me and my hon. Friends, which relate particularly to the...
Mark Hendrick | 438 c906 (Link to this contribution) My hon. Friend is probably aware that the police have given their reasons for supporting the 90-da...
David Winnick | 438 c906 (Link to this contribution) Would my hon. Friend say the same if the police favoured four months, six months or nine months? Of ...
David Winnick | 438 c906 (Link to this contribution) My hon. Friend makes a very powerful point.
Dominic Grieve | 438 c903 (Link to this contribution) I have no reason to doubt Lord Carlile’s sincerity in presenting his proposals. He says a great deal...
Dominic Grieve | 438 c903-4 (Link to this contribution) No, they are not. The Home Secretary asked for a real effort to be made to try to achieve consensus....
James Clappison | 438 c903 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to my hon. Friend for giving way. Has he not made an important point on Lord Carlile’s...
Dominic Grieve | 438 c904-5 (Link to this contribution) My hon. Friend is absolutely right, and that brings me to the conclusion of the points that I want...
John Bercow | 438 c904 (Link to this contribution) My hon. Friend very shrewdly avoided the elephant trap that had been laid for him by the hon. Memb...
David Hamilton | 438 c899 (Link to this contribution) We do not need to look to the future to realise that the relationship between the public and the pol...
Dominic Grieve | 438 c899-900 (Link to this contribution) I agree that policing in this country has always been done by consent—that is the fundamental basis ...
Adrian Bailey | 438 c900 (Link to this contribution) : Again, the hon. Gentleman appears to pose a theoretical argument. The Muslim community in my const...
Viscount Hailsham | 438 c899 (Link to this contribution) If by any chance the Committee were to move to 28 days, does my hon. Friend agree that revised codes...
Dominic Grieve | 438 c899 (Link to this contribution) I agree entirely. That is included in one of my amendments. I want to move away from the generaliti...
Ian Lucas | 438 c899 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Gentleman said that he would discuss warrants for further detention, but I have listened ca...
Dominic Grieve | 438 c899 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Gentleman is right. There is a procedure, especially under clause 24, to deal with scrutiny...
Dominic Grieve | 438 c898 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Gentleman is right. I never cease to be amazed at the number of hours that I have spent i...
Peter Robinson | 438 c898 (Link to this contribution) Does the hon. Gentleman face the same dilemma as me? When we are dealing with legislation on terrori...
Dominic Grieve | 438 c902-3 (Link to this contribution) I am not sure that it would be a huge change in principle, because if the hon. Gentleman looks at pa...
Dan Norris | 438 c903 (Link to this contribution) I thank the hon. Gentleman for giving way. Does not Lord Carlile also say that he has no problem wit...
Dominic Grieve | 438 c902 (Link to this contribution) If I might say so, if I had intended to interfere with the right to detain somebody for other reason...
Rob Marris | 438 c902 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman, who is being extremely generous in giving way. It is clear ...
Mark Hendrick | 438 c902 (Link to this contribution) : The hon. Gentleman’s argument is based on the premise that the extra time is required solely for q...
Ian Lucas | 438 c901 (Link to this contribution) : Would not this provision apply if information came to the police within that period as a consequen...
Dominic Grieve | 438 c900-1 (Link to this contribution) No, I hope that the hon. Gentleman will excuse me. Amendment No. 8 is a probing amendment, and is d...
Adrian Bailey | 438 c900 (Link to this contribution) Will the hon. Gentleman give way?
Dominic Grieve | 438 c900 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Gentleman misses the point. I cannot think of any law-abiding community in this country t...
Dominic Grieve | 438 c895 (Link to this contribution) I agree entirely with my hon. Friend. If this proves to be a system whereby people are detained for ...
Tony Baldry | 438 c895 (Link to this contribution) In relation to any operational benefit that the provision might bring the police, will that not be m...
Dominic Grieve | 438 c895 (Link to this contribution) I agree entirely with my right hon. Friend. The police should be listened to carefully, but the Hous...
David Heathcoat-Amory | 438 c895 (Link to this contribution) Has my hon. Friend noticed that the Government constantly repeat the excuse that the police want mor...
Dominic Grieve | 438 c896 (Link to this contribution) I am diversity spokesman for the Conservative party, which involves my contacting numerous Muslims b...
Adrian Bailey | 438 c895-6 (Link to this contribution) : As a Member with a substantial Muslim community, I have not received one submission from my local ...
Dominic Grieve | 438 c896 (Link to this contribution) I take the hon. Gentleman’s point. In fairness to the hon. Member for West Bromwich, West (Mr. Baile...
Keith Vaz | 438 c896 (Link to this contribution) I represent an inner-city constituency, which contains about 10 mosques. I have received many repr...
Baroness Kramer | 438 c896 (Link to this contribution) Does the hon. Gentleman agree that many members of the Muslim community—there is only one mosque in ...
Dominic Grieve | 438 c893-5 (Link to this contribution) We now have to consider clause 23 and the extension of the period of detention by judicial authority...
Mark Hendrick | 438 c897 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Gentleman knows that the purpose of detention is not just to question but, perhaps, to obta...
Dominic Grieve | 438 c897 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to my hon. Friend for intervening on a point of very great importance. As drafted, the...
William Cash | 438 c897 (Link to this contribution) My hon. Friend has tabled amendments Nos. 12 and 13. Amendment No. 13 states:"““but after the expiry...
Dominic Grieve | 438 c896-7 (Link to this contribution) As we know from personal experience, work expands to fill the time available, which must apply to th...
David Heath | 438 c898 (Link to this contribution) I want to bring the hon. Gentleman back to his important point about encryption and section 53 of th...
Dominic Grieve | 438 c898 (Link to this contribution) I agree. Indeed, my right hon. Friend the Member for Haltemprice and Howden asked the Government t...
Lord Deben | 438 c898 (Link to this contribution) Does my hon. Friend agree that there is no logic in choosing 90 days that would not apply to 120 day...
Dominic Grieve | 438 c897-8 (Link to this contribution) I have to accept that in this country today there are likely to be, for all I know, a large number o...
Dominic Grieve | 438 c896 (Link to this contribution) That may be the case. All I can say is that we should approach the subject with a great deal of seri...
Lord Davies of Stamford | 438 c896 (Link to this contribution) Is there not a danger that if the police can hold a suspect for up to three months, they will feel t...
Hazel Blears | 438 c876 (Link to this contribution) I entirely take my right hon. Friend’s point. That is not my intention. My intention is to engage co...
John Denham | 438 c875 (Link to this contribution) My right hon. Friend is possibly aware that I had been contemplating voting against the Government f...
Hazel Blears | 438 c874-5 (Link to this contribution) No, because I want to talk about intent. Clause 1 provides in essence that encouragement is committ...
Hazel Blears | 438 c875 (Link to this contribution) I am not prepared to say that I think that it goes as far as negligently. It includes recklessness, ...
Dominic Grieve | 438 c875 (Link to this contribution) It took a moment to follow the Minister’s argument but, if I understand her, she is conceding that, ...
Hazel Blears | 438 c876 (Link to this contribution) No, I want to make my final point. The right hon. and learned Member for Rushcliffe said that the c...
Dominic Grieve | 438 c876-8 (Link to this contribution) The debate has indeed been fascinating, but the Minister seemed to illustrate the muddled thinking f...
Chair of Committees of the Whole House | 438 c891 (Link to this contribution) Order. I have received the point of order and I have to tell the hon. Member that where Members of t...
Simon Hughes | 438 c891 (Link to this contribution) In the past, Whips have always been at the entrance of the Chamber, outside its confines, giving adv...
Chair of Committees of the Whole House | 438 c891 (Link to this contribution) Order. Hon. Members must come to order if I am to hear what might well be a point of order.
Simon Hughes | 438 c891 (Link to this contribution) Thank you very much, Mrs. Heal. In all the time that I have been here I can never remember during vo...
Chair of Committees of the Whole House | 438 c891 (Link to this contribution) Order. I apologise to the hon. Gentleman, but I am unable to hear his point of order.
Simon Hughes | 438 c891 (Link to this contribution) On a point of order, Mrs. Heal. In all the time that I have been here I can never remember—[Interrup...
Chair of Committees of the Whole House | 438 c891 (Link to this contribution) Order. I am replying to a point of order and I want the hon. Member to hear the reply. There is no ...
Alex Salmond | 438 c890-1 (Link to this contribution) On a point of order, Mrs. Heal. Is there anything in our procedures that would allow a time-out for ...
Chair of Committees of the Whole House | 438 c891-3 (Link to this contribution) With this it will be convenient to discuss the following: Amendment No. 9, in page 22, line 3, afte...
Dominic Grieve | 438 c891 (Link to this contribution) I beg to move amendment No. 8, in page 21, line 27, leave out subsection (2).
Lord Mann | 438 c861 (Link to this contribution) This an important point. A host of speakers have suggested that the Bill will create a new problem b...
Elfyn Llwyd | 438 c861 (Link to this contribution) The problem with the Bill is that it widens the remit and lowers the threshold of proof. ““Conspire”...
John Denham | 438 c863-5 (Link to this contribution) : Throughout this debate we need to focus our minds on the problem that we are trying to solve; ot...
Evan Harris | 438 c865-7 (Link to this contribution) I shall speak to amendments Nos. 97, 95 and 96, which are in my name, and wish to do so in the conte...
Graham Stuart | 438 c861 (Link to this contribution) Does the hon. Gentleman agree that Labour Members fail to understand the Opposition parties’ view th...
Viscount Hailsham | 438 c869-70 (Link to this contribution) : I know you want me to be brief, Mr. Forth, and I will be. In any event, I had the good fortune to ...
William Cash | 438 c868-9 (Link to this contribution) The case has been made from all parts of the Committee that the glorification provision should b...
Frank Dobson | 438 c867-8 (Link to this contribution) I speak as the Member for Holborn and St. Pancras, where two of the four outrages on 7 July took p...
Chair of Committees of the Whole House | 438 c867 (Link to this contribution) Order. I intend to call the Minister to make her winding-up speech at about 3.10 pm. Three experienc...
Gordon Prentice | 438 c907 (Link to this contribution) Is it not true that the 90-day proposal will violate article 5.3 of the European convention on human...
David Winnick | 438 c907 (Link to this contribution) My hon. Friend will be pleased to know that it was not a research assistant, because I do not have ...
Huw Irranca-Davies | 438 c907 (Link to this contribution) My hon. Friend rightly described himself as flexible, so I put the following point to my honoura...
David Winnick | 438 c907 (Link to this contribution) Whether the proposal infringes the ECHR is entirely a matter for the Home Secretary. No doubt my hon...
Emily Thornberry | 438 c908 (Link to this contribution) Does my hon. Friend agree that 28 days has the advantage over 90 days in that it is 62 days shorter?...
David Winnick | 438 c907-8 (Link to this contribution) My hon. Friend is reiterating the point made by my hon. Friend the Member for Preston (Mr. Hendric...
David Winnick | 438 c908 (Link to this contribution) As some would say, not even Einstein could have reached such a quick conclusion.
Elfyn Llwyd | 438 c906 (Link to this contribution) I refer the hon. Gentleman to last Wednesday’s debate and to his exchange with the Home Secretary, w...
Lord McCabe | 438 c907 (Link to this contribution) I have no doubt about my hon. Friend’s genuineness and sincerity in this matter. The police have m...
David Winnick | 438 c906-7 (Link to this contribution) Any private conversation that may or may not have taken place between my right hon. Friend the Home ...
David Winnick | 438 c908 (Link to this contribution) I do not think that it is a sin for this House to disagree with Lord Carlile.
David Hamilton | 438 c908 (Link to this contribution) Does my hon. Friend also accept that for an innocent person, as the vast majority are, the suggested...
David Winnick | 438 c908 (Link to this contribution) I shall take two more interventions, and then I must make some progress.
Adrian Bailey | 438 c908 (Link to this contribution) My hon. Friend is being very generous in giving way, and I do not think that there is a great deal o...
Martin Linton | 438 c908-9 (Link to this contribution) I thank my hon. Friend for his generosity in giving way. Does he accept that with the 7/7 bombings, ...
David Winnick | 438 c909 (Link to this contribution) What we can be certain of is that the 7/7 bombings took place despite what was already on the statut...
David Winnick | 438 c908 (Link to this contribution) That may be the position that the hon. Gentleman takes, but my point is that we should have a High C...
David Winnick | 438 c908 (Link to this contribution) I shall take two more interventions; then perhaps I can get on with my speech.
David Winnick | 438 c908 (Link to this contribution) No, I do not. The Bill provides that detention would be divided into steps of seven days, and exten...
William Cash | 438 c908 (Link to this contribution) As the hon. Gentleman may know, I tabled a fairly similar amendment, and there are one or two others...
David Winnick | 438 c909 (Link to this contribution) If I may say so, with all due respect to my hon. Friend—whom I genuinely respect—that is the most su...
David Winnick | 438 c909-11 (Link to this contribution) No, I shall make some progress now. Home Office figures show that 357 people were arrested between ...
Kali Mountford | 438 c909 (Link to this contribution) I was listening carefully to what my hon. Friend said about High Court judges, but can he draw a dis...
Dominic Grieve | 438 c911 (Link to this contribution) I have read carefully the hon. Gentleman’s proposals and listened to what he has said. They would of...
David Winnick | 438 c911 (Link to this contribution) One of the ironies of this situation is that I am as certain as I can be that if—heaven forbid—we ha...
Dominic Grieve | 438 c911 (Link to this contribution) I can assure the hon. Gentleman that such a proposal would not come from me.
David Winnick | 438 c911 (Link to this contribution) No, I am concluding my remarks. My right hon. Friend the Home Secretary will have the opportunity in...
David Heath | 438 c911-2 (Link to this contribution) : It is a pleasure to follow the hon. Member for Walsall, North (Mr. Winnick). If the Home Secretary...
David Heath | 438 c912 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Gentleman is absolutely right. The right hon. Gentleman is a Home Secretary with whom we wo...
Lord McCabe | 438 c912 (Link to this contribution) : Will the hon. Gentleman give way?
David Heath | 438 c912 (Link to this contribution) No. The hon. Gentleman might at least allow me to make my introductory comments. Secondly, the hon....
David Heath | 438 c913 (Link to this contribution) I shall give way to the hon. Member for Birmingham, Hall Green (Steve McCabe).
Lord McCabe | 438 c913 (Link to this contribution) No one wants to play politics with the issue and I take the hon. Gentleman’s word regarding his sinc...
Lord McCabe | 438 c913 (Link to this contribution) Will the hon. Gentleman give way?
David Heath | 438 c913 (Link to this contribution) I do not know whether the hon. Gentleman thinks that he is making a clever point, but I assure him t...
William Cash | 438 c913 (Link to this contribution) : Why was there no dissent from the Liberal Democrats in principle on the extension of the time limi...
David Heath | 438 c913 (Link to this contribution) I thought that I had just dealt with the principle involved, which, as I say, is about the balance t...
David Heath | 438 c913 (Link to this contribution) No, I will not give way; I want to make progress. In support of his proposals, the Home Secretary h...
Elfyn Llwyd | 438 c913-4 (Link to this contribution) Did not Lord Carlile say in his report that he would be far more comfortable with the proposed chang...
David Heath | 438 c914 (Link to this contribution) Lord Carlile did say that, and I will come to other things that my noble Friend has said, because so...
Dominic Grieve | 438 c914 (Link to this contribution) Does the hon. Gentleman agree that the fact that Lord Carlile highlighted the need for a special adv...
David Heath | 438 c914-5 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Gentleman is absolutely right. This is a base level against which we can measure the prop...
Martin Linton | 438 c915 (Link to this contribution) : Does the hon. Gentleman accept that the length of time that it takes to investigate terrorist offe...
David Heath | 438 c917 (Link to this contribution) We are giving a power. We have no idea how it will be used. If the House gives a power to the invest...
Mark Hendrick | 438 c916 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Gentleman is extremely generous. The idea of the provision is obviously that it pre-empts t...
Dan Norris | 438 c916-7 (Link to this contribution) : On encryption, it is possible for someone to walk off the street into a store and buy a 192-bit en...
David Heath | 438 c916 (Link to this contribution) I do not begin to understand what the hon. Gentleman meant in that intervention, so I cannot respond...
Mark Fisher | 438 c915 (Link to this contribution) : Having dealt with the ways in which Lord Carlile does, and does not, agree with the Home Secretary...
David Heath | 438 c915 (Link to this contribution) I do not want to reduce the hon. Gentleman’s proposition to the absurd, but exactly the same argumen...
Mark Hendrick | 438 c916 (Link to this contribution) Will the hon. Gentleman give way?
David Heath | 438 c915-6 (Link to this contribution) I agree. I have worked closely with the police over the years. As the hon. Gentleman may know, I was...
David Heath | 438 c917 (Link to this contribution) No, I must make progress. On the other point made by the hon. Member for Wansdyke (Dan Norris), as ...
Charles Clarke | 438 c920 (Link to this contribution) The Attorney-General is completely satisfied on that point, and it is precisely because he is that I...
Lord Clarke of Nottingham | 438 c920 (Link to this contribution) The Home Secretary gave us an insight into the opinion of the Attorney-General, who has been reporte...
Charles Clarke | 438 c920 (Link to this contribution) I hate to say that my hon. Friends, in accusing the hon. Gentleman of being churlish, are being chur...
Dominic Grieve | 438 c919 (Link to this contribution) I hope that the Home Secretary does not think that I am being churlish, but I feel bound to ask him ...
Charles Clarke | 438 c919 (Link to this contribution) The Attorney-General can speak for himself, but yes, I have spoken about this to the Law Officers, i...
Keith Vaz | 438 c919 (Link to this contribution) As the Home Secretary knows, before this debate the Attorney-General expressed concerns about thes...
Charles Clarke | 438 c918-9 (Link to this contribution) I hope that it will help the House if I set out the Government’s attitude to the amendments and new ...
David Heath | 438 c917-8 (Link to this contribution) No. Why are we proposing safeguards to proposals that we reject? Because our job is to improve the ...
Charles Clarke | 438 c920-1 (Link to this contribution) I shall give way again in a moment. I was saying that I was prepared to look at the points raised i...
Charles Clarke | 438 c921-2 (Link to this contribution) I have heard the hon. Member for Stone (Mr. Cash). I have dealt with the general points about prote...
Charles Clarke | 438 c922 (Link to this contribution) I am prepared to discuss doing precisely that with the hon. Gentleman and other colleagues. There is...
Dominic Grieve | 438 c922 (Link to this contribution) I hope that the Home Secretary will forgive me if I seek clarification of something that he has alre...
Charles Clarke | 438 c922-3 (Link to this contribution) They do, and the hon. Gentleman is right that Lord Carlile’s report was produced before the Bill was...
David Heath | 438 c922 (Link to this contribution) I am especially grateful that the Home Secretary went through all that Lord Carlile had to say inste...
Charles Clarke | 438 c923-4 (Link to this contribution) I appreciate the hon. Gentleman’s general support for our proposals. However, I would not advise the...
William Cash | 438 c923 (Link to this contribution) As the Home Secretary knows from discussions that we have had on this matter, the question of the Hu...
Charles Clarke | 438 c924 (Link to this contribution) The police believe that 90 days is right, and the Crown Prosecution Service believes that 90 days is...
Alistair Carmichael | 438 c924 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to the Home Secretary for giving way. He has told us that the CPS in England and Wales...
Michael Mates | 438 c924 (Link to this contribution) Many Members have said that the police are alone in wanting this extension, but the Minister for Pol...
David Winnick | 438 c926-7 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful for what my right hon. Friend has said. There is undoubtedly an argument to resolve th...
Charles Clarke | 438 c925-6 (Link to this contribution) Not under these proposals. However—again, I emphasise the point, because it was raised with me by th...
Lord Redwood | 438 c925 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to the Home Secretary, who is being very generous in giving way. If this provision wen...
Charles Clarke | 438 c925 (Link to this contribution) I believe that that is their position as well, but I must not mislead the House. I have focused more...
Emily Thornberry | 438 c928-9 (Link to this contribution) : I must begin by declaring an interest. I practised for 20 years as a criminal defence barrister in...
Michael Mates | 438 c927-8 (Link to this contribution) The whole House will have been impressed by the Home Secretary’s flexibility. To give credit where c...
Charles Clarke | 438 c927 (Link to this contribution) I very much appreciate my hon. Friend’s approach. To give him the assurance that I think that he see...
Chair of Committees of the Whole House | 438 c929 (Link to this contribution) Order. I do not want a conversation going on below the Gangway. It is disturbing the debate, which h...
Lord Deben | 438 c929 (Link to this contribution) : I am very pleased to follow the hon. Member for Islington, South and Finsbury (Emily Thornberr...
David Hamilton | 438 c930-1 (Link to this contribution) The contribution made by my hon. Friend the Member for Walsall, North (Mr. Winnick) was extremel...
Lord Deben | 438 c929-30 (Link to this contribution) On every such occasion, we sought to take action because public opinion demanded it, and because the...
Lord Clarke of Nottingham | 438 c934-6 (Link to this contribution) I appreciate the helpful nature of the amendment tabled by the hon. Member for Walsall, North (Mr. W...
William Cash | 438 c932-3 (Link to this contribution) I shall keep my remarks brief, because I know that other hon. Members wish to speak. My point goes...
Keith Vaz | 438 c933-4 (Link to this contribution) I wish to detain the Committee for only a few moments to raise just two points with my right hon. ...
Angus Robertson | 438 c934 (Link to this contribution) In that vein, does the hon. Gentleman agree that it is surprising that the Home Secretary does not s...
Keith Vaz | 438 c934 (Link to this contribution) To be fair to the Home Secretary, he made it clear in response to the intervention by the hon. Membe...
David Winnick | 438 c938 (Link to this contribution) It seems to me that if, in those consultations, the Conservatives and the Liberal Democrats hold on ...
Dominic Grieve | 438 c937 (Link to this contribution) I thank the Home Secretary for the statement that he made in his contribution, although I regret t...
David Heath | 438 c938 (Link to this contribution) May I echo the hon. Gentleman’s remarks about the helpfulness of the Home Secretary’s comments? We h...
Dominic Grieve | 438 c938 (Link to this contribution) We have approached the matter from the position that we do not like any extension of 14 days. Our ea...
Dominic Grieve | 438 c938 (Link to this contribution) I agree with the hon. Gentleman and beg to ask leave to withdraw the amendment.
William Cash | 438 c846 (Link to this contribution) Does the hon. and learned Gentleman accept that the glorification of the Catholic martyrs, which is ...
Dominic Grieve | 438 c901-2 (Link to this contribution) That might well be possible, but my amendment would not prevent that from happening. It would allow ...
Hazel Blears | 438 c876 (Link to this contribution) I have very little time and I want to turn to the amendments proposed by the hon. Member for Oxford,...
David Winnick | 438 c911 (Link to this contribution) No, I am coming to a close now. If my right hon. Friend also says that on Report he will come much n...
John Battle | 438 c936-7 (Link to this contribution) I have listened carefully to the debate. My right hon. Friend the Home Secretary invited to us to re...
Lord Clarke of Nottingham | 438 c856-7 (Link to this contribution) I will in just a second. I think that the body of law that we have in this country protects us quite...
Dominic Grieve | 438 c840 (Link to this contribution) I understand the hon. Lady’s point, but that is not, to my mind, what glorification is about. Indeed...
John Bercow | 438 c843 (Link to this contribution) : It might be argued that an academic treatise was precisely the kind of example in which glorificat...
Sadiq Khan | 438 c906 (Link to this contribution) What my hon. Friend the Member for Preston (Mr. Hendrick) says is not borne out by statistics. Since...
John Bercow | 438 c850 (Link to this contribution) Is it not clear that the Minister let the cat out of the bag in winding up last week’s Second Readin...
Robert Marshall-Andrews | 438 c840 (Link to this contribution) May I try to offer a little assistance on the intervention of my hon. Friend the Member for Northa...
Dominic Grieve | 438 c836 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to my right hon. and learned Friend. Sir Thomas was visited by the then Attorney-Ge...
Richard Burden | 438 c872 (Link to this contribution) If my right hon. Friend thinks that there is an easy distinction to be drawn in the manner suggested...
Elfyn Llwyd | 438 c861-3 (Link to this contribution) They are unnecessary, but if we are to have them, for heaven’s sake, let us have a proper legal basi...
Dominic Grieve | 438 c899 (Link to this contribution) I agree entirely with the hon. Gentleman, whose comments highlight the problem. I want to make it cl...
Notes
Daily part printing error - Amendment to division list at 438 c884 - under "Ayes" insert Mr Gordon Prentice
Subjects
Criminal investigation Detainees Evidence Incitement Judges Police Powers Prosecutions Public interest Police custody Negligence Terrorism Training Remand in custody Encouragement of terrorism Sunset clauses
Legislation
Terrorism Bill 2005-06
Link
View this Parliamentary proceeding on www.publications.parliament.uk