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Debate on bill on Monday, 23 January 2006, in the House of Lords.

Identity Cards Bill 2005-06

Identity Cards Bill. Lords Report stage second day. Amendments debated and agreed to on division. Other amendments debated and withdrawn. Part 1 of 2 records.

Secondary information

Type
Parliamentary proceeding
Reference
677 c955-1024 
Session
2005-06
Department
Home Office
Legislative stage
Report stage
Procedure
Government defeats
Chamber / Committee
House of Lords chamber
Related items
Identity Cards Bill. As amended in Committee (HL).
Monday, 19 December 2005
Bills
House of Lords
Proceeding contributions
Baroness Anelay of St Johns | 677 c956 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I rise briefly to formally welcome the amendment as moved by the Minister. It is not neces...
Baroness Scotland of Asthal | 677 c956-7 (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 36: Page 4, line 37, leave out from second ““provision”” to ““unless”” in line ...
Show all contributions (141)
Baroness Scotland of Asthal | 677 c955 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I beg to move that the Bill be now further considered on Report. Moved accordingly, and, ...
Baroness Scotland of Asthal | 677 c955-6 (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 35: Page 4, line 31, leave out paragraphs (a) and (b) and insert ““documents wh...
Lord Waddington | 677 c960-1 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I consider the amendment of great importance. It raises fundamental issues of liberty. Nob...
Lord Phillips of Sudbury | 677 c960 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I shall briefly respond to that intervention. The answer is that 10 European countries hav...
Lord Marsh | 677 c960 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, before the noble Lord sits down, perhaps I may mention an issue arising out of that intere...
Lord Phillips of Sudbury | 677 c960 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, because it is expected that there will be a vote on both amendments—both clauses are impor...
Viscount Bledisloe | 677 c960 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, before the noble Lord sits down, could he elucidate on where we are? He mentioned Amendmen...
Lord Phillips of Sudbury | 677 c957-60 (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 38: Page 5, line 4, leave out ““must”” and insert ““may, if the individual so c...
Baroness Scotland of Asthal | 677 c983 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, to clear this up, I confirm that what I said previously about how the super-affirmative pr...
Lord Marlesford | 677 c983-4 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I strongly support my noble friend Lady Anelay. I start from a simple premise, which is th...
Lord Waddington | 677 c983 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I am very grateful to the noble Baroness for saying that. I hope that what she says is not...
Lord Phillips of Sudbury | 677 c984 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I am grateful to the noble Viscount for giving way. I think that he may be wrong. If he do...
Viscount Bledisloe | 677 c984 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, there is a particular reason why compulsion must be introduced under primary legislation. ...
Viscount Bledisloe | 677 c984 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, that is all right because then if I do not get treated I shall die and, therefore, I shall...
Lord Phillips of Sudbury | 677 c986-7 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I support the noble Lord’s amendment. The Government must be given some credit for the sup...
Earl of Erroll | 677 c986 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, this amendment is essential. During the early stages of seeing whether the ID card scheme ...
Lord Waddington | 677 c987 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I am still unclear about the Government’s position on this. Are they saying that if both H...
Baroness Carnegy of Lour | 677 c988-9 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, enthusiasm for this amendment must be affected by the importance placed on the liberty of ...
Lord Thomas of Gresford | 677 c988 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I suggest that the measure requires rather more than discussion; it requires the consent o...
Lord Stoddart of Swindon | 677 c987-8 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, it surely must be right, when you are taking the step from voluntarism to compulsion, that...
Lord Phillips of Sudbury | 677 c987 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I do not know why the noble Lord, Lord Waddington, is pointing his gun at me. I am a mere ...
Lord Marlesford | 677 c991-2 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, the Minister has not really answered the point made by the noble and learned Lord, Lord Ac...
Baroness Scotland of Asthal | 677 c989-91 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I absolutely agree with the noble and learned Lord, Lord Ackner, that it is important to l...
Lord Ackner | 677 c989 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I apologise for interrupting the noble Baroness, but I do not understand why the second st...
Baroness Scotland of Asthal | 677 c989 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, can I make it clear why the Government absolutely do not accept it? It is because this is ...
Lord Stoddart of Swindon | 677 c992 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I am sorry to interrupt the Minister, but she mentioned a couple of minutes ago that the H...
Baroness Scotland of Asthal | 677 c992 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I hoped that I had addressed fully the noble and learned Lord’s points. Having had such an...
Baroness Scotland of Asthal | 677 c972 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, we made it absolutely clear—we should not by any means misdirect ourselves—that we would r...
Lord Thomas of Gresford | 677 c972 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I cannot find the word ““compulsory””.
Baroness Scotland of Asthal | 677 c972-3 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, it was debated at length in the Commons and debated in this House. To put this to rest, I ...
Lord Phillips of Sudbury | 677 c972 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I am sorry to interrupt, but it really is not good enough for the noble Baroness to say th...
Baroness Scotland of Asthal | 677 c972 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, we did put it into our manifesto.
Viscount Bledisloe | 677 c974 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, the noble Baroness has not answered my question. I did not ask whether it was compatible w...
Baroness Scotland of Asthal | 677 c973 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, the noble Lord is playing with words. Initially, which means ““at the first””, I explained...
Lord Thomas of Gresford | 677 c973 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, it may have been stated in Bills and in command papers, but 40 million people are to go on...
Baroness Scotland of Asthal | 677 c973-4 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I of course take note of what the noble Baroness said. Therefore, I shall remind the House...
Baroness Anelay of St Johns | 677 c973 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, on Report, I hate intervention. It is the last resort. I made it clear at the beginning of...
Lord Phillips of Sudbury | 677 c979 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I thank the Government for bringing forward the amendment, which is a considerable advance...
Earl of Mar and Kellie | 677 c979 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, could I ask whether such locations will be provided on every inhabited island, particularl...
Lord Crickhowell | 677 c979 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I spoke on this topic in Committee. I am grateful to the Minister for bringing forward the...
Lord Bassam of Brighton | 677 c978 (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 39: Page 5, line 24, after ““at”” insert ““an agreed place and time or (in the ...
Lord Phillips of Sudbury | 677 c975-6 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I am grateful to all of those who spoke in the debate, which has gone on for an hour and 1...
Baroness Scotland of Asthal | 677 c974-5 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, for the moment, until the scheme becomes compulsory, the noble Viscount will be able to ch...
Lord Waddington | 677 c982-3 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, no one seriously doubts that there is a difference in principle between a scheme which is ...
Baroness Anelay of St Johns | 677 c980-2 (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 46: Leave out Clause 6. The noble Baroness said: My Lords, we are romping thro...
Baroness Scotland of Asthal | 677 c980 (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 43: Page 5, line 32, at end insert— ““(   )   The power of the Secretary of S...
Lord Bassam of Brighton | 677 c979-80 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I hear the points made by the noble Lord, Lord Crickhowell, and the noble Earl, Lord Mar a...
Lord Phillips of Sudbury | 677 c1007 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, the Minister said something rather interesting then. She talked of, I think, a plain ident...
Baroness Carnegy of Lour | 677 c1009 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, before the noble Baroness sits down, did I understand her to say that a citizen will get a...
Baroness Scotland of Asthal | 677 c1007-9 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, in Committee we ran through the different stages. The noble Lord will know that there will...
Baroness Seccombe | 677 c1001 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, the Minister has raised some important points on residents and foreign nationals. I wish t...
Lord Bassam of Brighton | 677 c997-8 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, Amendment No. 52A would prevent an ID card being issued as a combined document with a desi...
Baroness Seccombe | 677 c998 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, that was not an unexpected reply, but a disappointing one nevertheless. I shall consider t...
Baroness Seccombe | 677 c999 (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 52B:"Page 7, line 21, leave out from ““that”” to end of line 22 and insert ““the...
Baroness Scotland of Asthal | 677 c992-3 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I do not want to enter the private grief of noble Lords opposite, but it was clear that th...
Baroness Anelay of St Johns | 677 c993-4 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, as ever, I am grateful to the Minister. On the issue of the Delegated Powers and Regulator...
Baroness Anelay of St Johns | 677 c996 (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 52: Leave out Clause 7. The noble Baroness said: My Lords, the amendment is co...
Baroness Seccombe | 677 c996-7 (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 52A:"Page 7, line 16, leave out ““as part of or”” and insert ““is issued””" The...
Baroness Scotland of Asthal | 677 c992 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I hear what the noble Lord says about that. We can only invite noble Lords to look at the ...
Baroness Seccombe | 677 c1006 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, as my noble friend Lord Selsdon explained, the aim of the amendment is not only to ensure,...
Lord Selsdon | 677 c1005 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, the noble Lord is very wise, and he should understand that I am not very clear either. But...
Baroness Carnegy of Lour | 677 c1005 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, my noble friend Lord Selsdon made one point in particular which interested me very much. H...
Lord Selsdon | 677 c1003-5 (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 52D:"Page 7, line 26, at end insert—" ““(2A)   Only one ID card may be held by...
Lord Phillips of Sudbury | 677 c1005 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, before the noble Lord sits down, can he make one point perfectly clear? Subsection (2B) of...
Lord Bassam of Brighton | 677 c1002 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, Clause 8(2)(b) includes in the definition of an ID card that data should be included on th...
Lord Phillips of Sudbury | 677 c1002 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I would like to support the amendment wholeheartedly, but unless I have misunderstood it, ...
Baroness Seccombe | 677 c1001 (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 52C:"Page 7, line 23, leave out from ““facilitating”” to end of line 26 and inse...
Baroness Scotland of Asthal | 677 c971 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I hear what the noble Earl says, but he knows as well as I do that, as we move forward, to...
Baroness Scotland of Asthal | 677 c970 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I am sure that that is what the noble Lord intended to say and I am grateful for the clari...
Viscount Bledisloe | 677 c970 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, the noble Baroness said that nobody was required to apply for a passport. Has it never occ...
Baroness Scotland of Asthal | 677 c970-1 (Link to this contribution) : My Lords, of course I do not say that. What I do say is that we have to look at the position that ...
Earl of Erroll | 677 c971 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, the Minister is about to do something she did in Committee, which is to confuse the biomet...
Lord Selsdon | 677 c968 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I am so sorry. Those of us who do not have the ““of”” after our name get confused. I have ...
Baroness Anelay of St Johns | 677 c968-70 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I strongly support this important amendment. The debate has ranged widely over the whole i...
Baroness Scotland of Asthal | 677 c970 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I greatly welcome the comments made so far in this debate. I hope that I will be able to e...
Lord Phillips of Sudbury | 677 c970 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I am going to save the noble Baroness some time. I never suggested that none of the inform...
Earl Ferrers | 677 c968 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, the noble Lord, Lord Stoddart of Swindon.
Lord Stoddart of Swindon | 677 c968 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I think that the noble Lord was referring to remarks made by me.
Lord Selsdon | 677 c968 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I know the noble Lord well. I thought I did say the noble Lord, Lord Swindon.
Earl Ferrers | 677 c966-7 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, the noble Lord, Lord Stoddart, has the capacity to needle people and is always fascinating...
Lord Selsdon | 677 c967-8 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I wonder if I can possibly help the Government. It seems that they have built a high and s...
Baroness Scotland of Asthal | 677 c966 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I hope that we have made it absolutely clear to the House that the two issues are not to b...
Lord Stoddart of Swindon | 677 c966 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I am glad to have that assurance on the record and I hope it will be repeated many times. ...
Baroness Scotland of Asthal | 677 c966 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I should clarify that that is not what the noble and learned Lord the Lord Chancellor said...
Lord Stoddart of Swindon | 677 c966 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, that confirms exactly what I have been saying: that although they are bringing forward a v...
Lord Stoddart of Swindon | 677 c965-6 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, the noble Lord says that he is listening to me. I hope that he will because I have been ar...
Lord Thomas of Gresford | 677 c963-4 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, my noble friend Lord Phillips and the noble Lord, Lord Crickhowell, referred to the Labour...
Viscount Bledisloe | 677 c964 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, a question occurred to me during the earlier speeches. One document to which this is inten...
Baroness Carnegy of Lour | 677 c964-5 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, the noble Viscount has made an extremely important point that may not have struck most of ...
Earl Ferrers | 677 c965 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I wonder whether the Minister could answer—
Lord Stoddart of Swindon | 677 c965 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I shall support the amendment moved by the noble Lord, Lord Phillips. I shall also support...
Lord Stoddart of Swindon | 677 c965 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, the noble Lord was not present to listen to the noble Lord’s opening speech—
Lord Crickhowell | 677 c961-2 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, the noble Lord, Lord Phillips, in moving the amendment, made a comprehensive and persuasiv...
Earl of Erroll | 677 c962-3 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I want to make a quick comment. The Bill will go through Parliament whether we like it or ...
Baroness Scotland of Asthal | 677 c1009-10 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, the individual will know the information on the card. That, as I have described, will be e...
Lord Phillips of Sudbury | 677 c1010 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, again before the noble Baroness sits down, I took the concern of the noble Baroness to rel...
Baroness Scotland of Asthal | 677 c1010 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I am sorry if I am not as clear as I believe I am being. The chip will only contain what a...
Lord Selsdon | 677 c1010-1 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I am most grateful to the noble Baroness. When she said ““reassure””, I would take out the...
Baroness Seccombe | 677 c1011-2 (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 52F:"Page 7, line 30, leave out ““prescribed period”” and insert ““life of the i...
Lord Selsdon | 677 c1012 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I hesitate to rise again, but my noble friend has raised some ancillary issues which come ...
Lord Phillips of Sudbury | 677 c1013 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, surely the card cannot be valid beyond the life of the cardholder. There is no identity to...
Lord Gould of Brookwood | 677 c1019-20 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, as noble Lords may have guessed, I have missed a few sessions of this Bill and so lost the...
Lord Hylton | 677 c1020 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, if the noble Lord who has just spoken thinks that the people of Somerset want ID cards, I ...
Baroness Carnegy of Lour | 677 c1020 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, the noble Lord, Lord Gould, may continue in his blissful belief that this is a corner of B...
Lord Phillips of Sudbury | 677 c1020-1 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, the noble Lord, Lord Gould, is wonderfully provocative. He did not refer to these Report s...
Baroness Scotland of Asthal | 677 c1021 (Link to this contribution) We hope to reach a short adjournment fairly soon.
Lord Stoddart of Swindon | 677 c1021 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I am sorry that the Minister will be delayed a little, but I am afraid her noble friend Lo...
Baroness Scotland of Asthal | 677 c1021-3 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I hope that I will be able to provide the clarification sought by the noble Baroness. I un...
Baroness Anelay of St Johns | 677 c1023-4 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I do like to give pleasure to the Minister, and on this occasion I certainly can. I forgiv...
Lord Phillips of Sudbury | 677 c1016-7 (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 53:"Page 7, line 41, leave out ““relating to an individual”” and insert ““issued...
Baroness Scotland of Asthal | 677 c1017 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I can confirm that the noble Lord’s understanding of the operation of Clause 8 (6) is corr...
Baroness Anelay of St Johns | 677 c1018 (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 54A:"Page 8, line 6, leave out from ““document”” to end of line 8." The noble B...
Baroness Seccombe | 677 c1018 (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 54B:"Page 8, leave out lines 14 to 16." The noble Baroness said: My Lords, this...
Lord Phillips of Sudbury | 677 c1017 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I am most grateful to the Minister for her explanation, which I shall read carefully. At f...
Lord Phillips of Sudbury | 677 c1017-8 (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 54:"Page 8, line 3, leave out ““must”” and insert ““may, if the individual so ch...
Baroness Scotland of Asthal | 677 c1018 (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 55:"Page 8, line 20, at end insert ““or" (   )   the registrable facts which a...
Baroness Anelay of St Johns | 677 c1018-9 (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 55A:"Page 8, line 37, leave out paragraph (b) and insert—" ““(b)   verifying i...
Lord Bassam of Brighton | 677 c1018 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, the amendment seeks to remove the clarification that the Secretary of State may delegate t...
Baroness Seccombe | 677 c1018 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I thank the noble Lord for that explanation. I beg leave to withdraw the amendment. Amend...
Baroness Anelay of St Johns | 677 c1016 (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 52H:"Page 7, line 33, leave out ““or is subject to compulsory registration””" O...
Lord Bassam of Brighton | 677 c1024 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I thank the noble Baroness for her comments. That will greatly assist us with our consider...
Baroness Seccombe | 677 c1015 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I believe that the debate in Committee was on the register; we did not probe the validity ...
Baroness Seccombe | 677 c1016 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I thank the noble Lord for that response and beg leave to withdraw the amendment. Amendme...
Lord Bassam of Brighton | 677 c1015-6 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, the amendment would remove the provision that ID cards such as passports remain the proper...
Lord Bassam of Brighton | 677 c1014-5 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I respect the point made by the noble Lord. When we were preparing for the Bill and this i...
Lord Selsdon | 677 c1014 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I have a question that takes us back to the life of cards. Your old passport was sent back...
Lord Bassam of Brighton | 677 c1015 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, it is very tempting that the noble Lord suggests that he might be combustible, but what he...
Lord Thomas of Gresford | 677 c1015 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, will the noble Lord confirm that the card is combustible, so that I can be cremated with m...
Lord Bassam of Brighton | 677 c1013-4 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I have a feeling that we dealt in Committee with much of the detail to which the noble Bar...
Baroness Scotland of Asthal | 677 c1006-7 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I personally thank the noble Lord, Lord Selsdon, for clarifying that I had misunderstood h...
Baroness Seccombe | 677 c1015 (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 52G:"Page 7, line 31, leave out ““issuing it”” and insert ““to whom it is issued...
Lord Crickhowell | 677 c984-6 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I am glad that the noble Viscount has put into place the extraordinary argument advanced b...
Lord Bassam of Brighton | 677 c999-1001 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, Amendments Nos. 52B and 52E would require holders of identity cards to provide consent bef...
Baroness Seccombe | 677 c1003 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I thank the Minister for that useful response and clarification. I beg leave to withdraw t...
Lord Thomas of Gresford | 677 c971-2 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, if it has always been the Government’s intention for this to be a compulsory system, why d...
Subjects
Data protection Biometrics Crime prevention Death Costs Delegated legislation Fees and charges Identity cards Information Documents Personal records Proof of identity Passports Registration Security Driving licences
Legislation
Identity Cards Bill 2005-06
Link
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