Adjournment debate on Thursday, 11 January 2007, in the House of Commons, led by Vera Baird. The answering member was Lord Bellingham.

Legal Aid

Westminster Hall debate on a motion for the adjournment on legal aid reform.

Secondary information

Type: Parliamentary proceeding
Reference: 455 c153-202WH
Session: 2006-07
Department: Department for Constitutional Affairs
Chamber / Committee: Westminster Hall
Related items: Deposited Paper HINF 2007/306
Monday, 19 February 2007
Deposited papers
House of Commons; Deposited Paper HINF 2007/305
Monday, 19 February 2007
Deposited papers
House of Commons; Deposited Paper HINF 2007/309
Monday, 19 February 2007
Deposited papers
House of Commons; Deposited Paper HINF 2007/307
Monday, 19 February 2007
Deposited papers
House of Commons; Deposited Paper HINF 2007/308
Monday, 19 February 2007
Deposited papers
House of Commons; Deposited Paper HINF 2007/304
Monday, 19 February 2007
Deposited papers
House of Commons; Deposited Paper DEP 07/525
Monday, 26 February 2007
Deposited papers
House of Commons
Proceeding contributions: Vera Baird | 455 c196WH (Link to this contribution) What is wrong is that those calculations are not based on reality. There are no fees fixed for any f...; Jeremy Corbyn | 455 c196-7WH (Link to this contribution) I am grateful for the Minister’s intervention, and I hope that she will not mind if I pass the corre...; Speaker | 455 c197WH (Link to this contribution) I thank the hon. Member for Newcastle upon Tyne, Central (Jim Cousins) for his patience.; Jim Cousins | 455 c197-9WH (Link to this contribution) I declare my interest in staying out of the hands of lawyers, and nothing that I have heard this aft...; Vera Baird | 455 c199-200WH (Link to this contribution) With permission, Sir Nicholas. I am most grateful to hon. Members for all their contributions to our...; Vera Baird | 455 c200-2WH (Link to this contribution) I hope that my hon. Friend will not mind if I do not give way, but I do not have much time. Just to...; Speaker | 455 c202WH (Link to this contribution) Order. We have run out of time. I thank the House for its co-operation.; Jeremy Corbyn | 455 c196WH (Link to this contribution) Thank you, Sir Nicholas. Like others who have spoken, I represent an inner-city constituency. I wel...; Speaker | 455 c196WH (Link to this contribution) The hon. Gentleman’s point has been noted and I assure him that it will be carried through.; Jeremy Corbyn | 455 c195-6WH (Link to this contribution) Thank you, Sir Nicholas. Six minutes will be quite sufficient. First, I would like to raise a point...; Vera Baird | 455 c153WH (Link to this contribution) On 28 November, the Government set out their programme to reform legal aid and put it on a sustainab...; Lord Beith | 455 c153WH (Link to this contribution) The Select Committee on Constitutional Affairs is about to embark upon a series of evidence sessions...; Speaker | 455 c153WH (Link to this contribution) I advise hon. Members that we finish at 5.30 pm. It looks as though this Adjournment debate will be ...; Vera Baird | 455 c156WH (Link to this contribution) No. Although a power to include a minimum contract threshold is taken in the new contract, there is ...; Jim Cousins | 455 c156WH (Link to this contribution) That is unexpected and kind, Sir Nicholas. May I take my hon. and learned Friend back to a point th...; Speaker | 455 c156WH (Link to this contribution) The hon. Gentleman is a senior Member.; Vera Baird | 455 c156WH (Link to this contribution) I did say that I would give way to my hon. Friend.; Vera Baird | 455 c156WH (Link to this contribution) I shall come to family fees. There will be a consultation on the regulatory impact assessment on ea...; Celia Barlow | 455 c155WH (Link to this contribution) I welcome the assurances that my hon. and learned Friend has given on immigration cases and more com...; Speaker | 455 c155-6WH (Link to this contribution) Order. Before I call the Minister, I should say that, although I am not known for supporting Ministe...; Vera Baird | 455 c155WH (Link to this contribution) I shall give way first to my hon. Friend the Member for Hove (Ms Barlow) and then to my hon. Friend ...; Vera Baird | 455 c154-5WH (Link to this contribution) No, I do not think so. I have seen a number of ways of calculating the current hourly rates. I suspe...; Baroness Hoey | 455 c154WH (Link to this contribution) My hon. and learned Friend has talked about the tuning that was done after representations, but does...; Vera Baird | 455 c155WH (Link to this contribution) I do not regard a budget that has increased from £1.5 billion to £2.1 billion since 1997 as a budget...; Simon Hughes | 455 c155WH (Link to this contribution) The Minister and Lord Carter have said that access to justice is"““no less a fundamental right than ...; Keith Vaz | 455 c154WH (Link to this contribution) My hon. and learned Friend mentioned the concerns of a number of groups, one of which is made up of ...; Vera Baird | 455 c154WH (Link to this contribution) I hope that we have done that. As I shall outline, there will be local consultations—in particular, ...; Sadiq Khan | 455 c154WH (Link to this contribution) My hon. and learned Friend was courteous enough to send me a copy of a letter that she sent to my ho...; Vera Baird | 455 c154WH (Link to this contribution) I can confirm all that my hon. Friend asks me to confirm. There is already a regulatory impact asses...; Vera Baird | 455 c154WH (Link to this contribution) I shall indeed do that. I shall watch the proceedings with interest, although it is rather a pity th...; Jonathan Djanogly | 455 c160WH (Link to this contribution) Will the Minister give way?; Vera Baird | 455 c160WH (Link to this contribution) But that does not follow in the slightest. Solicitors who enter the bidding process and bid at a pri...; Vera Baird | 455 c158-9WH (Link to this contribution) I have said what I have said—can we now talk about legal aid? In our view, there is no prospect of ...; Jonathan Djanogly | 455 c159WH (Link to this contribution) Will the Minister give way?; Speaker | 455 c158WH (Link to this contribution) Briefly, please.; Jim Cousins | 455 c158WH (Link to this contribution) My hon. and learned Friend said that the settlement for the DCA was average. In fact, the DCA is vir...; Vera Baird | 455 c159-60WH (Link to this contribution) I believe that the hon. Gentleman is talking about some research by LECG for the Law Society that es...; Jeremy Corbyn | 455 c160WH (Link to this contribution) Clearly, the running costs of solicitors’ practices vary enormously around the country. Perversely, ...; Vera Baird | 455 c159WH (Link to this contribution) Let me just finish the point. We shall leave in all travel costs in areas where that is the right co...; Jonathan Djanogly | 455 c159WH (Link to this contribution) I declare any interest that I may have as a solicitor. There seems to be a big difference between wh...; Jim Cousins | 455 c158WH (Link to this contribution) Will the Minister give way?; Vera Baird | 455 c158WH (Link to this contribution) Spending has gone up on the kind of civil help that my hon. Friend mentioned. As she knows from her ...; Vera Baird | 455 c158WH (Link to this contribution) I keep saying that I will not take any more interventions, but my hon. Friend is irresistible. Howev...; David Howarth | 455 c156WH (Link to this contribution) Will the Minister give way?; Vera Baird | 455 c156WH (Link to this contribution) This will be the last time that I do so before I make some progress.; David Howarth | 455 c156WH (Link to this contribution) Will the Minister explain the Government’s thinking on the very concept of minimum contracts? The be...; Vera Baird | 455 c156-7WH (Link to this contribution) As I said, at present there is no intention to limit the contract threshold in any way. However, the...; Dominic Grieve | 455 c157WH (Link to this contribution) Why has the DCA apparently been so relatively unsuccessful compared with other Departments in its bi...; Vera Baird | 455 c157WH (Link to this contribution) There certainly is a question about value for money for legal aid. As I am about to set out, that is...; Sally Keeble | 455 c157-8WH (Link to this contribution) Does my hon. and learned Friend accept that, although the overall budget has gone up, the spending h...; Elfyn Llwyd | 455 c161WH (Link to this contribution) Does the Minister not realise what concern there is outside this Chamber about the bidding process? ...; Vera Baird | 455 c161WH (Link to this contribution) As we are talking about legal aid, I shall not go into the community legal service strategy in great...; Jonathan Djanogly | 455 c160WH (Link to this contribution) I believe that the hon. Member for Islington, North (Jeremy Corbyn) was talking not about the money ...; Vera Baird | 455 c161WH (Link to this contribution) I am sorry to hear that negative approach, because the answer is that there is indeed scope for subc...; Meg Hillier | 455 c161WH (Link to this contribution) In my constituency, many people go to small advice agencies that are specifically geared to their cu...; Vera Baird | 455 c160WH (Link to this contribution) Let me finish the point. Competition between local firms will ensure best-value practices for the ta...; Vera Baird | 455 c164WH (Link to this contribution) As far as I know, the public authorities pay fixed fees in such situations, although they are unlike...; Jeremy Corbyn | 455 c164WH (Link to this contribution) The Minister misunderstood my point. She was talking about fixed fees for legal aid solicitors doing...; Vera Baird | 455 c164WH (Link to this contribution) No, I doubt very much that it is at the same rate. There has always been a huge difference between p...; Jeremy Corbyn | 455 c164WH (Link to this contribution) At the same rate?; Vera Baird | 455 c164WH (Link to this contribution) I think so. I think that most payment for legal work is done on a fixed fee basis.; Jeremy Corbyn | 455 c164WH (Link to this contribution) I am interested in the Minister’s discussion of the fixed fee. When the Government or other public a...; Vera Baird | 455 c163-4WH (Link to this contribution) If my hon. Friend writes to me, I shall try to answer the point that he was trying to make. In fami...; Speaker | 455 c163WH (Link to this contribution) Order. That is becoming an extremely long intervention.; Andy Slaughter | 455 c162-3WH (Link to this contribution) I was a member of the management committee of Hammersmith and Fulham community law centre for some 1...; Vera Baird | 455 c162WH (Link to this contribution) My hon. Friend is entirely right, but there is no perfect picture at present. Law centres and citize...; Sally Keeble | 455 c162WH (Link to this contribution) May I underpin how important the networking of advice agencies is? Where a network has not been esta...; Vera Baird | 455 c161WH (Link to this contribution) The process is a best-value bidding process. The auction process is being designed with input from t...; Vera Baird | 455 c162WH (Link to this contribution) No, I do not. The resources going in to the civil side have increased by 20 per cent. over the past ...; David Burrowes | 455 c161-2WH (Link to this contribution) Does not the Minister recognise that some firms already see the writing on the wall? High street pra...; Speaker | 455 c168WH (Link to this contribution) This is a three-hour debate and the Government opening speech has lasted three minutes short of an h...; Vera Baird | 455 c168WH (Link to this contribution) The fee is a national fee. It is the same wherever the work is done. I am sure that I have already s...; Simon Hughes | 455 c167WH (Link to this contribution) Perhaps I may ask a regional question. The Legal Services Commission accepted, as I understand it, t...; Vera Baird | 455 c167WH (Link to this contribution) It would depend on the category of case. The case cited by the hon. Gentleman sounds like a very hig...; Lord Bellingham | 455 c168-9WH (Link to this contribution) I declare my interest as a barrister who did legal aid work in the past. I welcome the debate in Gov...; Peter Bottomley | 455 c167WH (Link to this contribution) The Minister has explained that the proposals made in the summer were not right, and that they have ...; Vera Baird | 455 c167WH (Link to this contribution) It is being addressed. I have made the position clear. The fees incorporate all the time that is cur...; Andy Slaughter | 455 c166-7WH (Link to this contribution) I take the point about complex cases; but we are really talking about complex people, who take a lon...; Vera Baird | 455 c166WH (Link to this contribution) I shall give way first to my hon. Friend.; Karen Buck | 455 c165WH (Link to this contribution) The Minister said that 60 per cent. of cases will generate more income, and that is the key point, w...; Vera Baird | 455 c165WH (Link to this contribution) I went to the Mental Health Lawyers Association annual general meeting and had conversations there a...; Celia Barlow | 455 c166WH (Link to this contribution) My hon. and learned Friend is comparing region with region and supplier with supplier, but in child ...; Vera Baird | 455 c165-6WH (Link to this contribution) That is not, on the face of it, the case at all. My hon. Friend’s constituency, for instance, is ver...; Vera Baird | 455 c166WH (Link to this contribution) There will be graduated fees in child cases to represent the various stages of such cases. Again, th...; Elfyn Llwyd | 455 c164WH (Link to this contribution) As someone who prosecutes and defends, let me say that the rate at which prosecution briefs are norm...; Annette Brooke | 455 c165WH (Link to this contribution) On that point, I have received representations on behalf of relatively small practices in Dorset tha...; Vera Baird | 455 c164-5WH (Link to this contribution) I thank the hon. Gentleman. We will not talk about other publicly funded cases, but I hope that that...; Vera Baird | 455 c178WH (Link to this contribution) The hon. Gentleman is again doing exactly what I have been trying all afternoon to guard against. Th...; Simon Hughes | 455 c177-8WH (Link to this contribution) The Minister says no, but if she were to examine the salaries of GPs in London, Norfolk or anywhere ...; Vera Baird | 455 c177WH (Link to this contribution) indicated dissent.; Simon Hughes | 455 c175-7WH (Link to this contribution) The point that I was trying to make is that the lobby is not composed of fat cats on huge salaries w...; Simon Hughes | 455 c180WH (Link to this contribution) I thank the Minister for that. I was going to say the reforms will cut the criminal budget. I have s...; Baroness Hoey | 455 c180WH (Link to this contribution) For the second day running, I am on the same side of a debate as my neighbour and colleague, the hon...; Simon Hughes | 455 c179WH (Link to this contribution) Of course, we should encourage people to cost the Government, and therefore the taxpayer, the least ...; Vera Baird | 455 c180WH (Link to this contribution) The civil and family budget.; Simon Hughes | 455 c178-9WH (Link to this contribution) As the Minister heard, I introduced what I said and I was specific, by saying that she has introduce...; Vera Baird | 455 c179WH (Link to this contribution) Will the hon. Gentleman explain why if 50 per cent. of suppliers—let us take any figure—are capable ...; Sadiq Khan | 455 c182WH (Link to this contribution) Does my hon. Friend agree that an additional problem faced by those who give advice in law centres a...; Baroness Hoey | 455 c180-2WH (Link to this contribution) Yes, I am. Many of us would have liked to have taken part in the debate in the main Chamber today, a...; Vera Baird | 455 c182WH (Link to this contribution) As ever, my hon. Friend is making a strong case, but she seems to overlook entirely the fact that so...; Baroness Hoey | 455 c182WH (Link to this contribution) I am sure that all MPs have seen with trepidation such people come to our surgeries, and at the back...; Jeremy Corbyn | 455 c180WH (Link to this contribution) My hon. Friend is the first non-lawyer who has spoken.; Tony Baldry | 455 c183WH (Link to this contribution) I am not quite sure that I can.; Baroness Hoey | 455 c182WH (Link to this contribution) I can only say that there is a problem with the Minister’s or her officials’ communication skills be...; David Burrowes | 455 c182WH (Link to this contribution) I declare an interest as a practising solicitor in publicly funded work. The hon. Lady’s response t...; Baroness Hoey | 455 c182-3WH (Link to this contribution) We are not saying that many things cannot be looked at differently and done differently to help to m...; Speaker | 455 c183WH (Link to this contribution) I seek the co-operation of the House. I should like to call the Minister to respond briefly towards ...; Lord Bellingham | 455 c174WH (Link to this contribution) All I can say is that I have received dozens and dozens of letters and e-mails and met a large numbe...; Simon Hughes | 455 c174-5WH (Link to this contribution) I shall seek to heed your reminder, Sir Nicholas. I am very glad that we are having the debate, wh...; Speaker | 455 c174WH (Link to this contribution) Order. I make a final plea for good but brief speeches. That is necessary if even those who have wri...; Oliver Heald | 455 c175WH (Link to this contribution) Will the hon. Gentleman give way on that point?; Simon Hughes | 455 c175WH (Link to this contribution) Yes, and then I will press ahead.; Oliver Heald | 455 c175WH (Link to this contribution) Although I basically agree with the hon. Gentleman, does he not agree with me that the small high st...; Simon Hughes | 455 c175WH (Link to this contribution) I agree absolutely. As far as I know, we have not been lobbied by the senior partner of Linklaters. ...; Jonathan Djanogly | 455 c175WH (Link to this contribution) Will the hon. Gentleman give way?; Simon Hughes | 455 c175WH (Link to this contribution) I will give way once more and then I will press on, in response to your plea, Sir Nicholas.; Jonathan Djanogly | 455 c175WH (Link to this contribution) I thank the hon. Gentleman for giving way, because he is not quite correct. We have been significant...; Elfyn Llwyd | 455 c195WH (Link to this contribution) I do not sound very calm because I am in a rush to get these words out. Also, the issue is very impo...; Speaker | 455 c195WH (Link to this contribution) I thank the hon. Gentleman for his co-operation. There are six minutes left.; Elfyn Llwyd | 455 c193-5WH (Link to this contribution) I declare an interest, having practised 20 years as a solicitor in family and criminal law, and 10 y...; Vera Baird | 455 c195WH (Link to this contribution) I do not know how many times I have to say it, but there is nothing to worry about at present, becau...; Simon Hughes | 455 c192WH (Link to this contribution) The hon. Lady’s implication is that the other half may be losers, who will by definition be penalise...; Karen Buck | 455 c193WH (Link to this contribution) That is also true. For me, the key point is about whether the relevant research exists and, if so, w...; Karen Buck | 455 c191-2WH (Link to this contribution) Just before Christmas, I was fortunate enough to introduce a debate on legal aid under your chairman...; Vera Baird | 455 c190WH (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for giving way, because I shall not have time to deal with all t...; David Burrowes | 455 c189-90WH (Link to this contribution) I suggest that I am not out of date about the impact of the legislative change on firms and how they...; Speaker | 455 c191WH (Link to this contribution) Order. There are four speakers to be heard before we get to the Minister. I ask them to speak for a ...; David Burrowes | 455 c190-1WH (Link to this contribution) I am not sure that the Minister was at a court last week, as I was at Enfield magistrates court, whe...; Sadiq Khan | 455 c186-8WH (Link to this contribution) Before I kick off, I declare an interest: before entering Parliament, I was a solicitor and the firm...; Speaker | 455 c188WH (Link to this contribution) Order. I call David Burrowes—briefly, please.; David Burrowes | 455 c188-9WH (Link to this contribution) I shall pay due heed to that, Sir Nicholas. I declare an interest, in that I am a practising crimina...; Vera Baird | 455 c189WH (Link to this contribution) Surely the hon. Gentleman knows that since then the legal aid impact assessment has come into play. ...; Jeremy Corbyn | 455 c183WH (Link to this contribution) Seven minutes and 45 seconds.; Tony Baldry | 455 c183-6WH (Link to this contribution) Ah, yes. I feel rather sorry for the Minister. She must feel that the time she spent in the summer ...; Sadiq Khan | 455 c169WH (Link to this contribution) Will the hon. Gentleman give way?; Vera Baird | 455 c171WH (Link to this contribution) I did not hear the name of the organisation that the hon. Gentleman mentioned. Has he spoken to the ...; Lord Bellingham | 455 c172WH (Link to this contribution) Yes, it was the Immigration Law Practitioners Association and the briefing was from the president, I...; Jeremy Corbyn | 455 c171WH (Link to this contribution) Does the hon. Gentleman know or have an estimate of the shortage of practitioners who are prepared t...; Lord Bellingham | 455 c171WH (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for making that point. I have a brief from the Immigration Law P...; Lord Bellingham | 455 c169-71WH (Link to this contribution) I shall make progress, if I may. Defendants must of course have justice. Indeed, in a speech on Oct...; Vera Baird | 455 c174WH (Link to this contribution) The hon. Gentleman is falling into the very mischief I have spent most of the afternoon trying to st...; Vera Baird | 455 c173WH (Link to this contribution) I did not say there were no concerns at all; I said there were no imminent concerns because we would...; Lord Bellingham | 455 c173-4WH (Link to this contribution) The Minister should look at column 1280 of Hansard on 19 December 2006. Perhaps she meant that menta...; Jim Cousins | 455 c173WH (Link to this contribution) The number of mental health review tribunals is steadily increasing and the pool of lawyers willing ...; Lord Bellingham | 455 c173WH (Link to this contribution) I am grateful for that intervention from a senior hon. Member. I did have time to read out the whole...
Subjects: Community Legal Service Legal profession Fees and charges Legal aid scheme Legal Services Commission Reform
Link: View this Parliamentary proceeding on www.publications.parliament.uk

Legal Aid

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