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Committee of the Whole House (HL) and Debate on bill on Wednesday, 21 February 2007, in the House of Lords.

Legal Services Bill [HL]

Legal Services Bill (HL). Lords Committee stage fifth day. Schedule 15 agreed to. Clauses 112 to 137 agreed to. Part 1 of 2 records.

Secondary information

Type
Parliamentary proceeding
Reference
689 c1088-136 
Session
2006-07
Department
Department for Constitutional Affairs
Legislative stage
Committee stage
Chamber / Committee
House of Lords chamber
Related items
Proceeding contributions
Lord Whitty | 689 c1104 (Link to this contribution) I beg leave to withdraw the amendment. Amendment, by leave, withdrawn. [Amendments Nos. 117A to 11...
Lord Kingsland | 689 c1104 (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 119: 119: Clause 122 , page 63, line 19, at end insert ““, and (d) the activit...
Show all contributions (116)
Lord Whitty | 689 c1103 (Link to this contribution) I shall not pursue the amendment because, if it is capable of the interpretations of the noble Lords...
Baroness Ashton of Upholland | 689 c1103 (Link to this contribution) I will give anything further thought, as my noble friend would expect. The only comment I would make...
Lord Whitty | 689 c1104-5 (Link to this contribution) My Amendment No. 119A is in this group. Unlike the noble Lord’s amendment, it does not seek to exten...
Baroness Ashton of Upholland | 689 c1105-7 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to noble Lords for raising these issues. It might seem obvious to the noble Lord, Lord...
Baroness Ashton of Upholland | 689 c1103 (Link to this contribution) Of course. I hope that the noble Lord will discuss with me our interpretation of what we believe we ...
Lord Maclennan of Rogart | 689 c1102-3 (Link to this contribution) I am reassured to the extent that the Minister is anxious to ensure that the powers that I suggest t...
Baroness Ashton of Upholland | 689 c1102 (Link to this contribution) The noble Lord is right: I should have referred also to Clauses 117 and 118. When he reflects on wha...
Lord Maclennan of Rogart | 689 c1101-2 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to the Minister for her reply, but I confess that I am not wholly satisfied that she h...
Lord Kingsland | 689 c1109 (Link to this contribution) I see that the Minister is grappling with the matter. I could not possibly ask for more. In those ci...
Lord Kingsland | 689 c1109 (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 128: 128: Clause 130 , page 66, line 39, at end insert ““only by the Chief Omb...
Baroness Ashton of Upholland | 689 c1109-10 (Link to this contribution) I shall attempt to be similarly telegraphic. I agree with the noble Lord completely in his Amendment...
Lord Kingsland | 689 c1110 (Link to this contribution) I am reassured by much of what the noble Baroness has said. She made a distinction between delegatio...
Lord Kingsland | 689 c1107-8 (Link to this contribution) I am most grateful to the noble Baroness for her reply. I accept that some complaints, particularly ...
Baroness Ashton of Upholland | 689 c1108 (Link to this contribution) My preference is to leave to the OLC the issue of whether to allow complaints to be continued when t...
Lord Kingsland | 689 c1108 (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 122: 122: Clause 129 , page 66, line 21, leave out ““may”” and insert ““must””...
Baroness Ashton of Upholland | 689 c1109 (Link to this contribution) I was not disagreeing with the noble Lord. There will definitely be circumstances where it is absolu...
Lord Kingsland | 689 c1108 (Link to this contribution) I am most grateful to the Minister. I recognise that there are some circumstances which are complex ...
Baroness Ashton of Upholland | 689 c1113 (Link to this contribution) I had written ““listen”” on my speaking notes. I absolutely understand that my noble friend is tryin...
Lord Whitty | 689 c1113 (Link to this contribution) I am not quite as encouraged as I was hoping to be by the noble Baroness’s response and her self-inj...
Lord Neill of Bladen | 689 c1112 (Link to this contribution) I agree with the view of the noble and learned Baroness, Lady Butler-Sloss. If I follow the argument...
Lord Kingsland | 689 c1112 (Link to this contribution) I have listened carefully to the speeches of the noble and learned Baroness, Lady Butler-Sloss, and ...
Baroness Howe of Idlicote | 689 c1112 (Link to this contribution) I add my voice to those of my two noble friends and support the amendment of the noble Lord, Lord Wh...
Lord Maclennan of Rogart | 689 c1111 (Link to this contribution) I rise briefly to support the concerns of the noble Lord, Lord Whitty, and to encourage the Minister...
Lord Whitty | 689 c1111 (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 130A: 130A: Clause 130 , page 67, line 13, leave out ““the complainant or”” T...
Lord Kingsland | 689 c1110-1 (Link to this contribution) I shall look carefully at the record of these exchanges so that I understand precisely what the nobl...
Lord Neill of Bladen | 689 c1115 (Link to this contribution) I agree with the three previous speakers. In effect, this is a punishment for being an innocent defe...
Lord Maclennan of Rogart | 689 c1116 (Link to this contribution) I agree with all those who have spoken. We on these Benches feel that the clause is most unsatisfact...
Baroness Ashton of Upholland | 689 c1116-7 (Link to this contribution) I shall try to explain how we believe the system would work. I trust that that will provide comfort ...
Lord Kingsland | 689 c1114 (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 133: 133: Clause 133 , page 68, line 40, after ““scheme”” insert ““which are d...
Lord Whitty | 689 c1114 (Link to this contribution) In the light of my noble friend’s latest remarks, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment. Amendment,...
Lord Lyell of Markyate | 689 c1115 (Link to this contribution) I strongly support the amendment and wholly agree with my noble friend Lord Kingsland and the noble ...
Baroness Butler-Sloss | 689 c1115 (Link to this contribution) I have 35 years’ experience as a family judge and 15 years’ experience as barrister before it, much ...
Baroness Ashton of Upholland | 689 c1113 (Link to this contribution) I can say to my noble friend that I am happy to look at the language. I sense from your Lordships th...
Baroness Ashton of Upholland | 689 c1114 (Link to this contribution) I will certainly do that. I have the other relevant text here, which is to be found in Section 230. ...
Lord Neill of Bladen | 689 c1114 (Link to this contribution) With regard to the language, I think that the financial services provision does not have identical l...
Lord Kingsland | 689 c1121-2 (Link to this contribution) The noble Baroness has been uncharacteristically uncompromising in opposing Amendment No. 133. In re...
Baroness Ashton of Upholland | 689 c1121 (Link to this contribution) I was not failing to listen to the noble and learned Lord; I was simply welcoming the noble Lord, Lo...
Lord Lyell of Markyate | 689 c1118 (Link to this contribution) I have enormous respect for the noble Baroness. She always thinks and applies her mind very carefull...
Baroness Ashton of Upholland | 689 c1118-9 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to the noble and learned Lord for being so gallant in the way in which he puts his com...
Baroness Butler-Sloss | 689 c1117 (Link to this contribution) Is the Minister actually saying to us that she is leaving to the OLC the power to charge an utterly ...
Baroness Ashton of Upholland | 689 c1117-8 (Link to this contribution) On the basis of what I have already said about the acceptance of Amendment No. 38 and the force of t...
Baroness Ashton of Upholland | 689 c1120 (Link to this contribution) That was not my surprised face; that was my disagreement face. When I talked about the in-house reso...
Lord Lyell of Markyate | 689 c1120-1 (Link to this contribution) I hope that the Committee will forgive me for coming back again; I shall try to be brief. I ask the ...
Lord Maclennan of Rogart | 689 c1119 (Link to this contribution) I find the reply of the noble Baroness almost more disturbing than her initial remarks. She seems to...
Lord Neill of Bladen | 689 c1119-20 (Link to this contribution) I too was deeply disturbed by the explanation of the noble Baroness. At least twice she spoke of mat...
Baroness Ashton of Upholland | 689 c1088 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, on behalf of my noble and learned friend Lord Falconer of Thoroton, I beg to move that the...
Lord Lyell of Markyate | 689 c1088-9 (Link to this contribution) I strongly support my noble friend Lord Kingsland in these amendments, particularly in the second am...
Lord Kingsland | 689 c1088 (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 112: 112: Schedule 15 , page 212, line 16, leave out sub-paragraph (2) The no...
Lord Campbell of Alloway | 689 c1089 (Link to this contribution) The amendments are very important. For the reasons that have been given by my noble friend and my no...
Lord Lyell of Markyate | 689 c1090-1 (Link to this contribution) Can the noble Baroness clarify this matter? Before the chairman can be removed, some grave default h...
Lord Campbell of Alloway | 689 c1090 (Link to this contribution) That in no way grapples with the fundamental point being made by my noble friend and my noble and le...
Baroness Ashton of Upholland | 689 c1089-90 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Kingsland, for giving me the opportunity to talk about the rol...
Lord Lyell of Markyate | 689 c1092 (Link to this contribution) Could the noble Baroness clarify something? She refers in one sentence to the Secretary of State and...
Baroness Ashton of Upholland | 689 c1091-2 (Link to this contribution) The Lord Chancellor, as it would be, is not intervening in the decision, except if the Legal Service...
Lord Campbell of Alloway | 689 c1091 (Link to this contribution) If it is not the Lord Chief Justice, it could be the Lord Chancellor. If we had a Minister of Justic...
Baroness Ashton of Upholland | 689 c1092 (Link to this contribution) I can do nothing other than agree with the noble and learned Lord: it should be the Lord Chancellor....
Lord Kingsland | 689 c1092 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to the noble Baroness for her full reply. Indeed, she is right that the substitution o...
Baroness Ashton of Upholland | 689 c1093 (Link to this contribution) I am sorry that the noble Lord does not agree with me. I want to make one point about a matter that ...
Lord Whitty | 689 c1094 (Link to this contribution) had given notice of his intention to move Amendment No. 114A: 114A: Schedule 15, page 214, line 28...
Lord Kingsland | 689 c1094 (Link to this contribution) I am most grateful to the noble Baroness. I think we have taken this as far as we need to in Committ...
Lord Kingsland | 689 c1095 (Link to this contribution) I echo the words of the noble Lord, Lord Maclennan of Rogart. So far as I can tell, there is no equi...
Baroness Ashton of Upholland | 689 c1093 (Link to this contribution) Not surprisingly, I disagree with that; I do so because the Lord Chief Justice has many functions an...
Lord Lyell of Markyate | 689 c1093 (Link to this contribution) The noble Baroness makes a good point about accountability to Parliament; I am always banging on abo...
Baroness Ashton of Upholland | 689 c1093-4 (Link to this contribution) No, I disagree with that. We are relying on legislation that sets out how independent bodies will op...
Lord Kingsland | 689 c1093 (Link to this contribution) Of course the Lord Chancellor is accountable to Parliament, but, in basing her arguments on the poli...
Lord Maclennan of Rogart | 689 c1097 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to the noble Baroness for explaining what lies behind this slightly, on the face of it...
Lord Whitty | 689 c1097-8 (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 117ZA: 117ZA: Clause 118, page 61, line 32, at end insert ““, or ( ) investiga...
Baroness Ashton of Upholland | 689 c1095-7 (Link to this contribution) As the noble Lord, Lord Maclennan, said, we have touched previously on location, and I shall try to ...
Baroness Ashton of Upholland | 689 c1101 (Link to this contribution) I am perfectly happy to say that I am easily confused, as the noble Lord, Lord Kingsland, knows well...
Lord Kingsland | 689 c1101 (Link to this contribution) Before the noble Lord, Lord Whitty, replies—and I think that the noble Lord, Lord Maclennan, also wi...
Baroness Ashton of Upholland | 689 c1100-1 (Link to this contribution) We have had an interesting debate and I shall reflect on the specific points made by the noble Lord,...
Lord Kingsland | 689 c1099 (Link to this contribution) The noble Lord, Lord Neill of Bladen, has made a very good point on this line of amendments. My unde...
Lord Neill of Bladen | 689 c1098 (Link to this contribution) To consider the amendment moved by the noble Lord, Lord Whitty, on its own, my only concern in this ...
Lord Maclennan of Rogart | 689 c1098 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Whitty, for trailing the amendments standing in my name and th...
Lord Campbell of Alloway | 689 c1098 (Link to this contribution) I oppose the amendment for the reason that it has been in effect opposed already. It brings into pla...
Baroness Ashton of Upholland | 689 c1127-8 (Link to this contribution) I hope that that would never arise. We envisage that the OLC would say that the obvious solution to ...
Lord Kingsland | 689 c1128 (Link to this contribution) I think that this would be a good moment to bring the debate on this amendment to a close. I beg lea...
Lord Kingsland | 689 c1128 (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 134A: 134A: Clause 135, page 70, line 12, leave out ““£20,000”” and insert ““£...
Lord Whitty | 689 c1129 (Link to this contribution) My amendment in this group accepts some of the arguments of the noble Lord, Lord Kingsland, and woul...
Lord Kingsland | 689 c1127 (Link to this contribution) I put it to the noble Baroness that it is in the interests of the OLC to retain control of the situa...
Baroness Ashton of Upholland | 689 c1127 (Link to this contribution) I am not disputing the role that the OLC has to play. We want the OLC to be clear that if the situat...
Lord Kingsland | 689 c1127 (Link to this contribution) If the OLC is responsible for finding the other lawyer, the cost of that will be charged against the...
Baroness D'Souza | 689 c1129-30 (Link to this contribution) I support both amendments, although I would like to up the figure to £100,000. The important point t...
Lord Thomas of Gresford | 689 c1130 (Link to this contribution) One has to keep a sense of proportion about all this. If significant and serious loss is caused by t...
Baroness Ashton of Upholland | 689 c1130-1 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to noble Lords for raising this important issue. I have a lot of sympathy with what th...
Lord Whitty | 689 c1134 (Link to this contribution) I must vehemently oppose this amendment. The last two groups have seriously underlined a philosophic...
Baroness Butler-Sloss | 689 c1134 (Link to this contribution) If we are not to have recourse to the High Court other than by judicial review, it makes it the more...
Lord Kingsland | 689 c1132-3 (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 134C: 134C: Clause 137 , page 71, line 40, at end insert— ““(10A) Where a dete...
Lord Thomas of Gresford | 689 c1133-4 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, the observations of the noble Lord, Lord Kingsland, in support of this amendment really ma...
Lord Neill of Bladen | 689 c1131-2 (Link to this contribution) My problem with what the noble Lord, Lord Thomas of Gresford, has just said is that we then introduc...
Lord Kingsland | 689 c1132 (Link to this contribution) The exchanges between the noble Lord, Lord Thomas of Gresford, and the noble Lord, Lord Neill of Bla...
Lord Whitty | 689 c1131 (Link to this contribution) Before we finish on this amendment, I would like to correct the noble Lord, Lord Thomas of Greenford...
Lord Thomas of Gresford | 689 c1131 (Link to this contribution) I have not overlooked that, but it is important that we do not introduce a parallel scheme for the r...
Lord Thomas of Gresford | 689 c1134-5 (Link to this contribution) I support that. I have no objection to an ombudsman scheme at all, so long as it does not deal with ...
Lord Lyell of Markyate | 689 c1135 (Link to this contribution) I support my noble friend Lord Kingsland in raising an amendment that explores an important point. T...
Baroness Ashton of Upholland | 689 c1122 (Link to this contribution) I am beginning to work out very easily where a vote is coming on Report. I do not think that there a...
Lord Kingsland | 689 c1122 (Link to this contribution) I am most grateful to the noble Baroness nevertheless. In those circumstances, I beg leave to withdr...
Lord Kingsland | 689 c1124-5 (Link to this contribution) I am most grateful to the noble Baroness and to the noble Lord, Lord Neill of Bladen. I think that i...
Lord Neill of Bladen | 689 c1123 (Link to this contribution) Perhaps I may add a word to this debate. I was interested to hear of the noble Lord’s visit to Scotl...
Lord Kingsland | 689 c1126 (Link to this contribution) I am partially reassured by what the noble Baroness has said. It is extremely important that whateve...
Baroness Ashton of Upholland | 689 c1126-7 (Link to this contribution) Perhaps I can explain a bit further. We must have flexibility in the remedies and I agree that there...
Baroness Ashton of Upholland | 689 c1125-6 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to the noble Lord. He seeks to give an additional back-up power of direction. Where a ...
Baroness Ashton of Upholland | 689 c1135-6 (Link to this contribution) As noble Lords know, we looked at these issues before and after the Joint Committee on this Bill pro...
Baroness Crawley | 689 c1136 (Link to this contribution) I beg to move that the House be resumed. In doing so, I suggest that the Committee stage begin again...
Lord Kingsland | 689 c1136 (Link to this contribution) I am, once again, most grateful to the noble Baroness and to all noble Lords and noble and learned L...
Baroness D'Souza | 689 c1111-2 (Link to this contribution) I have not contributed to the Bill, but I do so now in support of the amendment tabled by the noble ...
Baroness Ashton of Upholland | 689 c1124 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Kingsland, for raising this issue. There is nothing difficult ...
Lord Kingsland | 689 c1122-3 (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 133A: 133A: Clause 134, page 69, line 14, at end insert— ““( ) In considering ...
Baroness Butler-Sloss | 689 c1112 (Link to this contribution) Perhaps I may look at the other side of the situation. I totally understand what lies behind the ame...
Lord Maclennan of Rogart | 689 c1094-5 (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 115A: 115A: Schedule 15, page 216, line 3, leave out paragraphs 21 and 22 The...
Baroness Ashton of Upholland | 689 c1110 (Link to this contribution) I can see why the noble Lord would be concerned. My understanding is that it was partly to make clea...
Baroness Ashton of Upholland | 689 c1090 (Link to this contribution) I disagree with the noble Lord and I am sorry about that. If you have a non-departmental public body...
Baroness Ashton of Upholland | 689 c1091 (Link to this contribution) I do not believe that it is, but I will confirm that with the noble and learned Lord shortly. Oh! I ...
Lord Kingsland | 689 c1125 (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 133B: 133B: Clause 134 , page 70, line 5, at end insert— ““( ) For the purpose...
Subjects
Complaints Conditions of employment Compensation Accountability Legal profession Public appointments Ombudsman Staff Standards Regulation Legal Services Board Office for Legal Complaints
Legislation
Legal Services Bill (HL) 2006-07
Link
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