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Committee of the Whole House (HL) and Debate on bill on Tuesday, 6 March 2007, in the House of Lords.

Legal Services Bill [HL]

Legal Services Bill (HL). Lords Committee stage sixth day. Clauses 158 to 204 agreed to; clauses 161, 176, 177, 194 to 196 agreed to as amended. Schedules 16 to 24 agreed to. Bill printed as amended.

Secondary information

Type
Parliamentary proceeding
Reference
690 c147-218 
Session
2006-07
Department
Department for Constitutional Affairs
Legislative stage
Committee stage
Procedure
New clauses
Chamber / Committee
House of Lords chamber
Related items
Proceeding contributions
Lord Kingsland | 690 c181-3 (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 149A: 149A:Schedule 16 , page 231, line 30, leave out paragraph 40 and insert—...
Baroness Ashton of Upholland | 690 c183 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Kingsland, for raising these issues. We recognised that the po...
Show all contributions (142)
Lord Kingsland | 690 c181 (Link to this contribution) In those circumstances, the correct approach for me to adopt is to beg leave to withdraw the amendme...
Lord Evans of Temple Guiting | 690 c181 (Link to this contribution) This may be a convenient moment for the Committee to adjourn for 20 minutes. I beg to move that the ...
Baroness Carnegy of Lour | 690 c181 (Link to this contribution) Did the Law Society see the Bill before it was published? It seems extraordinary that Parliament has...
Baroness Ashton of Upholland | 690 c180 (Link to this contribution) I am extremely grateful to the noble Lord for dealing so succinctly with this huge group of amendmen...
Lord Kingsland | 690 c183-4 (Link to this contribution) I am most grateful to the noble Baroness, who has again assured your Lordships that she will take th...
Lord Kingsland | 690 c184 (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 149C: 149C: Schedule 16, page 232, line 6, at end insert— ““(2) After that sec...
Lord Borrie | 690 c191-2 (Link to this contribution) I declare an interest as a Master of the Bench of the Middle Temple; that is, I am a member of the g...
Baroness Butler-Sloss | 690 c190-1 (Link to this contribution) I endorse and unreservedly support what the noble Lord, Lord Kingsland, has said. I declare an inter...
Lord Kingsland | 690 c185-6 (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 150: 150: Schedule 16, page 232, line 18, leave out paragraph 43 and insert— “...
Lord Kingsland | 690 c185 (Link to this contribution) I am once again most grateful to the noble Baroness for agreeing to take these matters away and cons...
Lord Kingsland | 690 c187 (Link to this contribution) I am most grateful to the noble Baroness. I am not sure. These amendments were inspired by the Solic...
Baroness Ashton of Upholland | 690 c186-7 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to the noble Lord. The provisions we have set out in paragraph 43 of Schedule 16 are i...
Baroness Ashton of Upholland | 690 c188 (Link to this contribution) Once again, I am grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Kingsland, for explaining the detail behind the am...
Lord Kingsland | 690 c187-8 (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 150ZA: 150ZA: Schedule 16, page 238, line 17, leave out paragraph (a) and inse...
Lord Kingsland | 690 c189-90 (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 151: 151: After Clause 173, insert the following new Clause— ““Barristers Barr...
Lord Kingsland | 690 c189 (Link to this contribution) Once again, I am most grateful to the noble Baroness. I have succeeded for the most part and hope th...
Lord Neill of Bladen | 690 c192 (Link to this contribution) I support what has just been said by the noble and learned Baroness, Lady Butler-Sloss, and the nobl...
Lord Kingsland | 690 c195 (Link to this contribution) After the second intervention of the noble Baroness, I feel much more reassured. In those circumstan...
Baroness Ashton of Upholland | 690 c193 (Link to this contribution) I hope that the noble Lord can organise it. I completely recognise the strength of feeling about the...
Lord Thomas of Gresford | 690 c193 (Link to this contribution) I think that the noble Baroness has just invited herself to four Inns of Court.
Baroness Ashton of Upholland | 690 c193 (Link to this contribution) That was the most animated debate we have had today. I still struggle with what a bencher is, never ...
Lord Thomas of Gresford | 690 c192-3 (Link to this contribution) I am sorry that representation for Lincoln’s Inn is missing—because I declare an interest as a bench...
Baroness Ashton of Upholland | 690 c195 (Link to this contribution) The point is well made, and well taken. That is why we need to take the issue away and get it right....
Baroness Butler-Sloss | 690 c194 (Link to this contribution) I wonder if I can point out to the Minister that I understand very well why ““barrister”” was not in...
Baroness Ashton of Upholland | 690 c194 (Link to this contribution) I had hoped that the noble Lord would be more enthusiastic about my words. First, there are some iss...
Lord Kingsland | 690 c193-4 (Link to this contribution) I am most grateful to the noble Baroness for her reply, but I am disappointed that she is not able t...
Lord Kingsland | 690 c195 (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 151ZA: 151ZA:Schedule 17 , page 265, line 12, at end insert— ““In section 22 (...
Baroness Ashton of Upholland | 690 c195-6 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to the noble Lord. I agree; we need to recognise that it is important to update and st...
Lord Kingsland | 690 c198 (Link to this contribution) I am most grateful to the Minister. I sense that she accepts the logic that lay behind my interventi...
Baroness Ashton of Upholland | 690 c197-8 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to the noble Lord for raising these points. I was expecting him to do so, which is why...
Lord Thomas of Gresford | 690 c199 (Link to this contribution) My name is attached to this amendment. Of course, we support the noble Lord, Lord Kingsland, who has...
Lord Kingsland | 690 c198-9 (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 151C: 151C:Clause 184 , page 99, line 4, leave out subsection (2) The noble L...
Lord Kingsland | 690 c196 (Link to this contribution) I am most grateful to the Minister. Of course I will allow her to go away and consider these matters...
Lord Kingsland | 690 c197 (Link to this contribution) The purpose of encouraging this clause-stand-part debate is to raise the issue of immigration advice...
Baroness Ashton of Upholland | 690 c196-7 (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 151B: 151B:Clause 177 , page 93, leave out lines 35 to 37 and insert— ““(7) An...
Baroness Ashton of Upholland | 690 c199-200 (Link to this contribution) Again, I am grateful to the noble Lord for raising this issue. Clause 184 maintains the rights and ...
Lord Kingsland | 690 c200 (Link to this contribution) I am of course most grateful to the Minister for her explanation, but I do not understand why the lo...
Lord Lyell of Markyate | 690 c199 (Link to this contribution) As I was responsible on and off for 10 years for the Government Legal Service, I think that my noble...
Lord Lyell of Markyate | 690 c201 (Link to this contribution) Before the noble Baroness answers that, I hope that I may inject one more thought. Although it is tr...
Lord Thomas of Gresford | 690 c201 (Link to this contribution) It would cost £850,000. It struck me that the Government were running short of solicitors. How much ...
Lord Thomas of Gresford | 690 c201 (Link to this contribution) Before the noble Baroness answers that, did I hear her say that the cost would be only £158,000?
Baroness Butler-Sloss | 690 c201 (Link to this contribution) Are barristers employed in public service by government treated differently from solicitors employed...
Lord Kingsland | 690 c200-1 (Link to this contribution) I am not asking the noble Baroness to exempt barristers; I am simply using the illustration of barri...
Baroness Ashton of Upholland | 690 c200 (Link to this contribution) I am now confused about what the noble Lord wants me to do. The noble Lord, Lord Thomas of Gresford,...
Lord Campbell of Alloway | 690 c156 (Link to this contribution) I do not disagree for that reason, but where is the problem to which the noble Baroness refers in th...
Lord Campbell of Alloway | 690 c153 (Link to this contribution) I support the amendments, for the reasons given by my noble friend Lord Kingsland and the noble Lord...
Lord Mackay of Clashfern | 690 c153-4 (Link to this contribution) It is worth recalling that, in so far as cash burdens are imposed on the legal profession, these wil...
Lord Campbell of Alloway | 690 c156 (Link to this contribution) The noble Baroness has just dealt with the question of principle, but what is the justification for ...
Lord Kingsland | 690 c151-3 (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 139H: 139H: After Clause 165, insert the following new Clause— ““Establishment...
Baroness Ashton of Upholland | 690 c151 (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 139G: 139G:Clause 161, page 84, line 7, after ““persons”” insert ““(other than...
Lord Maclennan of Rogart | 690 c153 (Link to this contribution) I support the noble Lord, Lord Kingsland, in his Amendment No. 139H and those associated with it in ...
Lord Kingsland | 690 c150-1 (Link to this contribution) I am most grateful to the noble Baroness. She will be aware from the previous five sittings that one...
Lord Kingsland | 690 c150 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to the noble Baroness for her response. I am also extremely grateful to the noble Lord...
Baroness Ashton of Upholland | 690 c150 (Link to this contribution) I was saying under my breath that it is early in the day—hence the smiling. I was interested in what...
Lord Maclennan of Rogart | 690 c148 (Link to this contribution) I support the amendments proposed by the noble Lord, Lord Kingsland. It is clear that, despite the b...
Baroness Ashton of Upholland | 690 c148-9 (Link to this contribution) I agree with the noble Lords, Lord Kingsland and Lord Maclennan of Rogart, that it is essential that...
Lord Kingsland | 690 c148 (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 139FA: 139FA: Before Clause 158, insert the following new Clause— ““Duty to co...
Lord Kingsland | 690 c164-5 (Link to this contribution) I am most grateful. But the Minister must accept that, as matters stand, the legal profession has, a...
Lord Kingsland | 690 c165-6 (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 148A: 148A:Clause 169 , page 88, line 20, at end insert— ““( ) The duty to com...
Baroness Ashton of Upholland | 690 c166-7 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to the noble Lord for explaining the purpose behind the amendment so succinctly. I und...
Lord Kingsland | 690 c167 (Link to this contribution) I am delighted to hear that the Minister agrees with the objectives that the amendment sets out to m...
Baroness Ashton of Upholland | 690 c162-3 (Link to this contribution) I agree with the remarks of the noble Lord, Lord Maclennan, about the importance of light-touch regu...
Lord Maclennan of Rogart | 690 c162 (Link to this contribution) We on these Benches take a broadly similar view to that enunciated by the noble Lord, Lord Kingsland...
Baroness Ashton of Upholland | 690 c164 (Link to this contribution) As I indicated to the noble Lord, Lord Kingsland, I think that the best way of tackling the accounta...
Baroness Carnegy of Lour | 690 c163 (Link to this contribution) Can the Minister tell the Committee, from her examination of the comparisons, what differences betwe...
Baroness Ashton of Upholland | 690 c164 (Link to this contribution) I was trying to demonstrate the different kinds of financial systems that have been set up and the r...
Lord Kingsland | 690 c164 (Link to this contribution) Once again, I am grateful for the Minister's reply. Towards the end of her observations, the Ministe...
Baroness Ashton of Upholland | 690 c161 (Link to this contribution) The noble Lord is far too clever for me. He will not be surprised that I will want to go away and th...
Lord Kingsland | 690 c161 (Link to this contribution) I find the thought that the Minister is thinking exceedingly reassuring. In those circumstances, I b...
Baroness Ashton of Upholland | 690 c160 (Link to this contribution) I am saying, and I will reiterate it, that I do not want these considerations in the Bill, for the r...
Lord Kingsland | 690 c160 (Link to this contribution) I am most grateful for the Minister’s reply. To some degree, it may be that the problems anticipated...
Lord Kingsland | 690 c161-2 (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 142B: 142B:Clause 166 , page 86, line 8, after ““means”” insert ““two-thirds o...
Baroness Ashton of Upholland | 690 c156-7 (Link to this contribution) We have also debated at great length the whole question of delegation and I continue in my discussio...
Lord Maclennan of Rogart | 690 c160 (Link to this contribution) Before the Minister sits down, would she clarify her last point? Is she saying that, although she do...
Baroness Ashton of Upholland | 690 c159-60 (Link to this contribution) I had guessed where this amendment might have come from. As the noble Lord has indicated, it is very...
Lord Kingsland | 690 c158-9 (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 142A: 142A:Clause 166 , page 85, line 40, at end insert— ““( ) In apportioning...
Lord Kingsland | 690 c157-8 (Link to this contribution) As ever I am most grateful to the noble Baroness for her reply. I want to make just a few observatio...
Lord Kingsland | 690 c176-7 (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 149ZE: 149ZE:Schedule 16 , page 222, line 41, at end insert— ““( ) in subsecti...
Lord Kingsland | 690 c176 (Link to this contribution) I am delighted to say, perhaps for the first time today, that, in view of the noble Baroness’s respo...
Lord Kingsland | 690 c174 (Link to this contribution) I am most grateful to the noble Baroness. Insurance will inevitably be an issue in this context but ...
Lord Kingsland | 690 c174-6 (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 149ZB: 149ZB:Schedule 16 , page 221, line 2, leave out from ““certificate”” to...
Lord Thomas of Gresford | 690 c176 (Link to this contribution) We must be grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Kingsland, for his exposition, which has made clear many...
Baroness Ashton of Upholland | 690 c176 (Link to this contribution) I, too, am grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Kingsland, for going through the amendments in detail. I...
Baroness Ashton of Upholland | 690 c173 (Link to this contribution) Evidence is quite central. I was trying to make the distinction about the desire to regulate reserve...
Lord Kingsland | 690 c173 (Link to this contribution) That was a very helpful invitation from the noble Baroness. It has somewhat stopped me in my tracks ...
Baroness Hamwee | 690 c174 (Link to this contribution) I feel somewhat embarrassed at intervening, having had nothing to do with this Bill so far. As a sol...
Baroness Ashton of Upholland | 690 c174 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to the noble Baroness. I do not know if that is the main issue, but when we have discu...
Lord Kingsland | 690 c173 (Link to this contribution) I am of course most grateful. I was interested to hear the noble Baroness use ““no evidence”” as one...
Baroness Ashton of Upholland | 690 c172-3 (Link to this contribution) This amendment is the first of a number of amendments proposed to Schedule 16, on an issue on which ...
Lord Kingsland | 690 c171-2 (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 149ZA: 149ZA:Schedule 16 , page 218, line 37, leave out paragraph 2 and insert...
Baroness Ashton of Upholland | 690 c171 (Link to this contribution) I was not going to reflect on that—that discussion has taken place and the Master of the Rolls is co...
Lord Kingsland | 690 c171 (Link to this contribution) The noble Baroness has a point, which is enough for me at this stage. I beg leave to withdraw the am...
Baroness Ashton of Upholland | 690 c170-1 (Link to this contribution) I hear what the noble Lord is saying and I need to take more advice on that. I recognise that he is ...
Lord Kingsland | 690 c171 (Link to this contribution) I would have thought that, from the point of view of independence, you could not have a better guara...
Baroness Ashton of Upholland | 690 c168-70 (Link to this contribution) I am again grateful to the noble Lord for explaining what he is seeking to do. I shall try to explai...
Lord Kingsland | 690 c170 (Link to this contribution) Once again I am most grateful to the noble Baroness. I quite understand that if the concerns that sh...
Lord Kingsland | 690 c167-8 (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 149: 149:After Clause 170 , insert the following new Clause— ““Solicitors’ Dis...
Lord Kingsland | 690 c179-80 (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 149ZN: 149ZN: Schedule 16, page 230, line 45, at end insert— ““(ba) if the bod...
Lord Kingsland | 690 c178 (Link to this contribution) The Minister should accept that, since 1990, when the six-month rule was established, the nature of ...
Lord Clinton-Davis | 690 c177-8 (Link to this contribution) I am delighted to hear my noble friend agree to reconsider this issue. I strongly believe that six m...
Baroness Ashton of Upholland | 690 c178 (Link to this contribution) Precisely; we will discuss this with the Law Society. I do not promise to make the changes but I pro...
Baroness Ashton of Upholland | 690 c178-9 (Link to this contribution) Again, I am grateful to the noble Lord for raising this issue. I know that the Law Society has raise...
Lord Kingsland | 690 c179 (Link to this contribution) I could not possibly argue with that very generous offer. In those circumstances, I beg leave to wit...
Lord Kingsland | 690 c178 (Link to this contribution) I would certainly be prepared to accept an amendment such as that. It has immediate attractions beca...
Lord Kingsland | 690 c178 (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 149ZM: 149ZM: Schedule 16, page 228, line 12, at end insert— ““( ) after ““rel...
Baroness Ashton of Upholland | 690 c177 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to the noble Lord for discussing the amendments in detail. My concern is about extendi...
Lord Thomas of Gresford | 690 c214-5 (Link to this contribution) We fully support this amendment. We do not see why an interim chief executive should be appointed wh...
Lord Kingsland | 690 c214 (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 157A: 157A: Schedule 22, page 300, line 29, leave out paragraph 4 The noble L...
Lord Kingsland | 690 c216-8 (Link to this contribution) I am most grateful to the Minister for her response. I am also grateful for the support I have recei...
Baroness Ashton of Upholland | 690 c215-6 (Link to this contribution) Perhaps I may explain how the interim chief executive will operate. Someone has to make decisions an...
Lord Thomas of Gresford | 690 c215 (Link to this contribution) The noble Baroness has just referred to IT, which is another example of the enormous investment that...
Baroness Ashton of Upholland | 690 c215 (Link to this contribution) I know from discussions that I have had outside the Chamber with the noble Lord, Lord Thomas of Gres...
Lord Neill of Bladen | 690 c214 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful. I beg leave to withdraw the amendment. Amendment, by leave, withdrawn. Clause 201 a...
Lord Kingsland | 690 c211-2 (Link to this contribution) The same applies to this part of the House. The noble Lord, Lord Neill of Bladen, can rely on our su...
Baroness Ashton of Upholland | 690 c212-3 (Link to this contribution) I understand entirely what the noble Lord, Lord Neill of Bladen, seeks to do, and I pay tribute to t...
Lord Neill of Bladen | 690 c213 (Link to this contribution) I thank those who have lent support to what I have said, from which I received encouragement. I am g...
Lord Lyell of Markyate | 690 c213 (Link to this contribution) I apologise to the House because I could not hear the amendment in the normal manner, although I did...
Lord Neill of Bladen | 690 c207-11 (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 157ZA: 157ZA:Clause 201 , page 110, line 27, at end insert ““provided always t...
Baroness Ashton of Upholland | 690 c207 (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 155A: 155A: Clause 196, page 108, line 17, at end insert— ““( ) A statutory in...
Baroness Butler-Sloss | 690 c211 (Link to this contribution) I strongly support the noble Lord, Lord Neill of Bladen. I shall deal with points that the Committee...
Lord Thomas of Gresford | 690 c207 (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 153: 153: Clause 196, page 108, line 7, at end insert— ““( ) section 107 (fore...
Baroness Ashton of Upholland | 690 c206 (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 151E: 151E: Clause 195, page 106, line 39, at end insert— ““( ) Subsection (6)...
Lord Thomas of Gresford | 690 c206-7 (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 152: 152: Clause 196, page 108, line 5, at end insert— ““( ) section 79(1) (fu...
Lord Kingsland | 690 c206 (Link to this contribution) I am most grateful to the noble and learned Lord for that explanation. Quite often pro bono work wil...
Baroness Ashton of Upholland | 690 c206 (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 151D: 151D: Clause 194, page 106, line 9, at end insert— ““( ) Any rules made ...
Lord Kingsland | 690 c205 (Link to this contribution) I am most grateful to the noble and learned Lord for his very full explanation. He mentioned that th...
Lord Goldsmith | 690 c205-6 (Link to this contribution) I am not absolutely sure what consultation at this stage there will have been with anyone else. The ...
Lord Goldsmith | 690 c203-5 (Link to this contribution) I thank the noble Lord for his kind words of welcome. In responding to the amendment, I should decla...
Lord Kingsland | 690 c202-3 (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 151CA: 151CA:Clause 185 , page 99, line 32, leave out ““the prescribed charity...
Baroness Ashton of Upholland | 690 c201-2 (Link to this contribution) I agree completely with what the noble and learned Lord said about the high standards that they woul...
Baroness Ashton of Upholland | 690 c185 (Link to this contribution) I am again grateful to the noble Lord, and I will be brief. We want to consider the amendments. I un...
Baroness Ashton of Upholland | 690 c196 (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 151A: 151A:Clause 176 , page 91, leave out lines 18 to 20 and insert— ““(7) An...
Lord Clinton-Davis | 690 c178 (Link to this contribution) Would the noble Lord be prepared to accept an amendment that said that the normal rule should be six...
Baroness Ashton of Upholland | 690 c154-5 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to noble Lords for this very important debate on the levy. However, the Government beg...
Lord Thomas of Gresford | 690 c211 (Link to this contribution) The noble Lord, Lord Neill of Bladen, will not be surprised if I tell him that he has the full suppo...
Baroness Ashton of Upholland | 690 c147 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, on behalf of my noble and learned friend Lord Falconer of Thoroton, I beg to move that the...
Baroness Ashton of Upholland | 690 c181 (Link to this contribution) The Government have been talking to the Law Society throughout as we have put the Bill together. Wha...
Baroness Ashton of Upholland | 690 c156 (Link to this contribution) I shall certainly seek to do that for the noble Lord. We have set up a system in response to a conce...
Lord Kingsland | 690 c202 (Link to this contribution) It is clear that the noble Baroness is well dug-in on this issue, in contrast to her reaction to mos...
Subjects
Complaints Disciplinary proceedings Disclosure of information Charities Companies Conveyancing Costs Business Legal profession Finance Fees and charges Licensing Immigration Exemptions Law Society Payments Public bodies Patents Small businesses Regulation Rural areas Solicitors Trade marks General Council of the Bar Solicitors Disciplinary Tribunal Legal Services Board Office for Legal Complaints
Legislation
Legal Services Bill (HL) 2006-07
Link
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