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Committee of the Whole House (HL) and Debate on bill on Monday, 10 December 2007, in the House of Lords.

Human Fertilisation and Embryology Bill [HL]

Human Fertilisation and Embryology Bill (HL). Lords Committee stage third day. Clauses 12 to 23 agreed to. Schedules 3 and 4 agreed to. Part 1 of 2 records.

Secondary information

Type
Parliamentary proceeding
Reference
697 c11-75 
Session
2007-08
Department
Department of Health
Legislative stage
Committee stage
Chamber / Committee
House of Lords chamber
Related items
Proceeding contributions
Baroness Finlay of Llandaff | 697 c66 (Link to this contribution) Would the Government consider incorporating the spirit of these amendments, if not their exact wordi...
Lord Mackay of Clashfern | 697 c67 (Link to this contribution) The authority lays down the guidance, subject to approval by the Secretary of State. This would ther...
Show all contributions (126)
Baroness Finlay of Llandaff | 697 c67 (Link to this contribution) I thank the noble and learned Lord for his correction.
Lord Darzi of Denham | 697 c67 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful for the comments made by the noble Baroness, Lady Finlay. I would like to return to th...
Lord Northbourne | 697 c67 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to all Members of the Committee who have spoken in this debate. It might be helpful if...
Lord Northbourne | 697 c67 (Link to this contribution) I thank the Minister. I beg leave to withdraw the amendment. Amendment, by leave, withdrawn. [Amen...
Earl of Listowel | 697 c67-9 (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 57ZA: 57ZA: Clause 14, page 9, line 14, at end insert— ““( ) After subsection ...
Earl Howe | 697 c69-70 (Link to this contribution) Until the noble Earl tabled his amendment, I thought that my own Amendments Nos. 58 and 59 might be ...
Baroness Hollis of Heigham | 697 c70 (Link to this contribution) I am sympathetic to a lot of what the noble Earl, Lord Howe, said and I can see how what he suggeste...
Earl Howe | 697 c70 (Link to this contribution) In the same way that the Healthcare Commission enforces minimum standards in private hospitals, it i...
Lord Warner | 697 c70-1 (Link to this contribution) I support the two amendments of the noble Earl, Lord Howe. I disagree with my noble friend Lady Holl...
Baroness O'Cathain | 697 c71 (Link to this contribution) I, too, support these absolutely appropriate amendments. There should not be two worlds in IVF of th...
Baroness Finlay of Llandaff | 697 c71 (Link to this contribution) I support the amendments of the noble Earl, Lord Howe. I should point out that ““counselling”” is a ...
Lord Alton of Liverpool | 697 c71 (Link to this contribution) I support the comments made by the noble Lord, Lord Warner. He is right. I am not trying to put word...
Lord Northbourne | 697 c71 (Link to this contribution) I support these three amendments. It would be wholly irresponsible not to do everything we could to ...
Baroness Barker | 697 c72 (Link to this contribution) I thank the noble Earl for that support. I seize this opportunity to flag up organisations such as U...
Baroness Royall of Blaisdon | 697 c72-3 (Link to this contribution) As my noble friend Lord Darzi explained, the Bill sets out that any woman shall not be provided with...
Baroness Barker | 697 c72 (Link to this contribution) We risk a serious outbreak of unanimity and I do not feel very comfortable with that. I wish to make...
Earl of Listowel | 697 c72 (Link to this contribution) I quite agree with what the noble Baroness says but I draw her attention to paragraph (iv) in my ame...
Earl of Listowel | 697 c74-5 (Link to this contribution) I thank the noble Earl, Lord Howe, for saying that he was grateful for this amendment in terms of pe...
Baroness O'Cathain | 697 c75 (Link to this contribution) had given notice of her intention to move Amendment No. 57A: 57A: Clause 14, page 9, line 17, leav...
Baroness Royall of Blaisdon | 697 c75 (Link to this contribution) I beg to move that the House do now resume. In moving this Motion, I suggest that the Committee begi...
Baroness O'Cathain | 697 c73 (Link to this contribution) Has the Minister really taken on board the comments made by the noble Baroness, Lady Finlay, who mad...
Baroness Royall of Blaisdon | 697 c73-4 (Link to this contribution) I was going on to address that and other issues. I did, indeed, take on board the point made by the ...
Earl Howe | 697 c74 (Link to this contribution) Before the noble Earl decides what to do with his amendment, let me say that I am extremely grateful...
Lord Darzi of Denham | 697 c54 (Link to this contribution) I thank the noble Lord for that point. I will be precise in my definition by writing to him, but I w...
Baroness Barker | 697 c49-50 (Link to this contribution) I take us right back to the speech of noble Baroness, Lady Deech, who set us off on this debate some...
Baroness Finlay of Llandaff | 697 c48-9 (Link to this contribution) I know that we are all waiting for the Minister to sum up, but I would like to ask a question that w...
Lord Elystan-Morgan | 697 c48 (Link to this contribution) I wish to make one point, of thundering simplicity and already touched upon by the noble Lord, Lord ...
Baroness Howarth of Breckland | 697 c48 (Link to this contribution) That was exactly my point. I was born on a large, tough, working-class estate in Sheffield. All I am...
Lord Elton | 697 c54 (Link to this contribution) Could the Minister help me with the concept of making a second woman a parent in statute? That impli...
Lord Darzi of Denham | 697 c54 (Link to this contribution) I thank my noble friend. I will certainly seek the legal advice. As most of us will know, the other ...
Lord Warner | 697 c54 (Link to this contribution) Will the Minister do a service to the House before Report? He made the important statement that the ...
Lord Darzi of Denham | 697 c50-3 (Link to this contribution) Once again, this has been a fascinating and informative debate, building on the excellent speeches t...
Lord Tebbit | 697 c47 (Link to this contribution) Why does the noble Baroness assume that middle-class morals and middle-class families are somehow be...
Baroness Howarth of Breckland | 697 c55 (Link to this contribution) I do not think that at any moment I said anything about the kind of role models that a child will ne...
Baroness Deech | 697 c55 (Link to this contribution) We agree on the responsibility to society, but many of us see it differently. The liberalisation, if...
Lord Northbourne | 697 c56-7 (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 55A: 55A: Clause 14, page 9, line 14, leave out paragraph (b) and insert ““and...
Baroness Deech | 697 c55-6 (Link to this contribution) I am all in support of the village, which of course consists of members of both sexes. Further resea...
Earl of Listowel | 697 c58-9 (Link to this contribution) I was moved to put my name to this amendment as treasurer of the All-Party Parliamentary Group on Ch...
Baroness Finlay of Llandaff | 697 c57-8 (Link to this contribution) I added my name to this amendment because I felt that it was very important to consider what childre...
Lord Winston | 697 c60-1 (Link to this contribution) I am very grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Northbourne, the noble Baroness, Lady Finlay, and the nob...
Earl Howe | 697 c59-60 (Link to this contribution) I am impressed by the amendment in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Northbourne, and by the case tha...
Lord Winston | 697 c55 (Link to this contribution) Let me explain once again what I was trying to say. When doctors forget that the most important pers...
Baroness Deech | 697 c54-5 (Link to this contribution) Time does not allow me to pay full tribute to the richness and depth of this debate. I am sure that ...
Lord Warner | 697 c63 (Link to this contribution) I wondered how long my noble friend would take to rise to the bait. We need to count how many times ...
Lord Winston | 697 c63 (Link to this contribution) I cannot help but observe that if Parliament makes law that cannot be enforced, it is bound to be th...
Lord Warner | 697 c62 (Link to this contribution) As we are going into ex-ministerial confessional mode, I will raise some points both in response to ...
Lord Mackay of Clashfern | 697 c62 (Link to this contribution) I do not have the HFEA guidance in front of me but my recollection of it is—and the Minister will be...
Lord Northbourne | 697 c62 (Link to this contribution) Before the noble Baroness sits down, would she admit that, in the context of achieving the objective...
Baroness Hollis of Heigham | 697 c61 (Link to this contribution) Could my noble friend help us, because I do not think that there is any disagreement in the House as...
Earl Howe | 697 c61 (Link to this contribution) The noble Lord will know that that particular subject is the focus of a later group of amendments an...
Lord Darzi of Denham | 697 c65-6 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful for the willingness of the noble Lord, Lord Northbourne, the noble Baroness, Lady Finl...
Baroness Royall of Blaisdon | 697 c65 (Link to this contribution) I want to speak procedurally about the suggestion of the noble Earl, Lord Listowel. I have taken adv...
Lord Elton | 697 c64 (Link to this contribution) While my noble friend is thinking about that, I rise to give him thinking space. We should not immed...
Lord Elton | 697 c64 (Link to this contribution) I am happy to be corrected in that way but the state is, by legislation, facilitating and regulating...
Baroness Barker | 697 c64 (Link to this contribution) To give the noble Earl, Lord Howe, a little more time, I shall seek clarification. Either I am mista...
Lord Warner | 697 c63 (Link to this contribution) I am glad to be thought to be on the moral high ground; with me, that very rarely occurs in this wor...
Baroness Hollis of Heigham | 697 c63 (Link to this contribution) As a former Minister, does my noble friend agree that it is imperative that Ministers, including for...
Earl of Listowel | 697 c64 (Link to this contribution) I wonder whether it would be helpful to the Committee to consider whether, if the noble Earl, Lord H...
Baroness Tonge | 697 c63-4 (Link to this contribution) I welcome both these thought-provoking amendments. Of the two, that of the noble Earl, Lord Howe, is...
Baroness Carnegy of Lour | 697 c18-9 (Link to this contribution) I have not joined in the proceedings before. I missed Second Reading but I have listened to the whol...
Lord Alton of Liverpool | 697 c19 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to the noble Baroness for raising that issue. First, I do not speak for the church or ...
Baroness Royall of Blaisdon | 697 c20-1 (Link to this contribution) This has been another fascinating debate. Amendments Nos. 50 and 54, tabled by the noble Lord, Lord ...
Lord Winston | 697 c16-8 (Link to this contribution) I had not intended to speak in support of the amendment because it seemed self-evident that it was a...
Lord Patten | 697 c18 (Link to this contribution) I fully support the noble Lord, Lord Alton of Liverpool, and will not attempt to repeat the argument...
Bishop of St Albans | 697 c18 (Link to this contribution) I am neither a medic nor a lawyer, but if I picture a child involved in such processes, I have this ...
Lord Winston | 697 c18 (Link to this contribution) On a brief point of information, the amendment is not suggesting that we take eggs or sperm—or cells...
Lord Patel | 697 c11-3 (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 50: 50: Schedule 3, page 64, line 46, at end insert— ““Consent in relation to ...
Lord Alton of Liverpool | 697 c13-6 (Link to this contribution) My noble friend Lord Patel has just said that there should be the strictest safeguards. He has also ...
Lord Sewel | 697 c29 (Link to this contribution) I am very grateful for that clarification; I think that it slightly changes the argument, but the em...
Lady Saltoun of Abernethy | 697 c29 (Link to this contribution) I am not remotely interested in the rights of children or the rights of women or anybody else to hav...
Lord Sewel | 697 c28 (Link to this contribution) I have listened very carefully to the argument of the noble Baroness, Lady Deech. As far as I could ...
Baroness Deech | 697 c28 (Link to this contribution) I was not aware of having said that a child has a right to a father. I was only arguing for the exis...
Baroness Deech | 697 c22-4 (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 55: 55: Clause 14, page 9, line 14, leave out paragraph (b) The noble Barones...
Baroness O'Cathain | 697 c24-8 (Link to this contribution) I support the noble Baroness, Lady Deech, and will speak to the remaining amendments in this group, ...
Lord Alton of Liverpool | 697 c21 (Link to this contribution) I would not want the Committee to think that I had diverted it away from the amendment. Amendment No...
Lord Patel | 697 c21-2 (Link to this contribution) I am coming to that. As I said, my amendment is about children who suffer from very serious diseases...
Lord Patel | 697 c21 (Link to this contribution) Much of the discussion had nothing to do with my amendment. It involved the wider discussion that we...
Lord Darzi of Denham | 697 c11 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I beg to move that the House do now again resolve itself into Committee on this Bill. Mov...
Lord Winston | 697 c43 (Link to this contribution) Would the noble Lord be good enough to retract the word ““technician””? It is nothing but insulting ...
Lord Tebbit | 697 c42-3 (Link to this contribution) That is exactly about the technology. The noble Lord has been talking about the moral issues behind ...
Lord Alton of Liverpool | 697 c43-4 (Link to this contribution) We have heard a number of things in this debate about the importance of children having the opportun...
Lord Tebbit | 697 c43 (Link to this contribution) If the noble Lord does not want to think of himself as a technologist because of the responsibilitie...
Baroness Hollis of Heigham | 697 c42 (Link to this contribution) I was not stigmatising stigma; I was stigmatising policy that would lead to the stigmatisation of ch...
Lord Tebbit | 697 c41-2 (Link to this contribution) I find this a difficult debate. I confess that I do not believe, in the way that the noble Baroness,...
Lord Winston | 697 c42 (Link to this contribution) The noble Lord is on great form this afternoon, but does he agree that we would like to take his adv...
Lord Tebbit | 697 c42 (Link to this contribution) I felt stigmatised today by the noble Baroness because I have to tell her that I am one of those mal...
Baroness Hollis of Heigham | 697 c44 (Link to this contribution) In what way does the noble Lord believe that a clinician should ask a woman about this? I apologise ...
Lord Alton of Liverpool | 697 c44 (Link to this contribution) I do not want questions to be asked. Here I echo what my noble and learned friend Lady Butler-Sloss ...
Lord Jenkin of Roding | 697 c44 (Link to this contribution) I support the amendment in the name of the noble Baroness, Lady Deech, but Mr Burrowes asked Profess...
Baroness Howarth of Breckland | 697 c47 (Link to this contribution) I am nearly finished—the noble Lord, Lord Tebbit, may want to answer. Having been in social care fo...
Lord Jenkin of Roding | 697 c46 (Link to this contribution) I sense that the Committee wants to reach a conclusion and to hear the Minister, but I have two extr...
Lord Alton of Liverpool | 697 c45 (Link to this contribution) That is the reverse of the argument. If the law has not been used to discriminate against people hav...
Baroness Hollis of Heigham | 697 c45 (Link to this contribution) If there are no cases, what is the point of the provision?
Lord Alton of Liverpool | 697 c44-5 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Jenkin of Roding, but I do not think I am overstating it. The ...
Lord Tebbit | 697 c33 (Link to this contribution) I do not want to interrupt the noble Lord’s flow, but several times he has referred to the ““unborn”...
Lord Warner | 697 c31-3 (Link to this contribution) I support Amendment No. 55. I should, however, make it clear that I do not support any of the other ...
Lord Northbourne | 697 c33-4 (Link to this contribution) My name is on the amendment. I find myself on the horns of a dilemma, because I put my name on it as...
Lord Warner | 697 c33 (Link to this contribution) The noble Lord is right. I mean ““unconceived””, but by definition I mean ““unborn”” as well. In co...
Lord Turnberg | 697 c34-5 (Link to this contribution) We have heard some significant and impressive arguments in favour of fatherhood. As someone who will...
Baroness Butler-Sloss | 697 c34 (Link to this contribution) I also support Amendment No. 55. I think it is important that this House remember that there are sin...
Baroness Hollis of Heigham | 697 c35-7 (Link to this contribution) If anyone had come into Committee to listen to the debate without looking closely at the wording of ...
Lord Harries of Pentregarth | 697 c35 (Link to this contribution) The noble Lord, Lord Warner, three times referred to the symbolic effect of this clause and the nobl...
Baroness Hollis of Heigham | 697 c37 (Link to this contribution) I absolutely agree that the welfare of the child is paramount. The child thrives best where, if ther...
Lord Lloyd of Berwick | 697 c37 (Link to this contribution) Des the noble Baroness accept that we ought to take account of the welfare of the child in these mat...
Lord Mackay of Clashfern | 697 c37-8 (Link to this contribution) It is important to remember that those supporting this amendment are not seeking to put these words ...
Earl of Listowel | 697 c40 (Link to this contribution) May I ask my noble friend Lord Winston a question on this research, which he has often referred to? ...
Lord Winston | 697 c39-40 (Link to this contribution) Forgive me for saying so, but that does sound a little dismissive. However, I take back what I said....
Lord Warner | 697 c39 (Link to this contribution) Perhaps I may just correct the record. I did not say that I was not interested in the research; I sa...
Lord Winston | 697 c38-9 (Link to this contribution) I find it very difficult to disagree with the noble and learned Lord, Lord Mackay, for whom I have s...
Baroness Deech | 697 c40 (Link to this contribution) The work of Professor Golombok is frequently cited, but she is one alone in this country with a very...
Lord Winston | 697 c40 (Link to this contribution) May I finish my sentence? I have now been interrupted three times. It is reasonable for me to finish...
Lord Winston | 697 c40 (Link to this contribution) I do not think that the research is at all controversial. It is widely accepted around the world. It...
Lord Winston | 697 c41 (Link to this contribution) I am very sorry that the noble Baroness, who is a distinguished academic, cites anecdotal informatio...
Lord Warner | 697 c41 (Link to this contribution) May I ask my noble friend a question? In the case of the 40 year-old woman who has put off having a ...
Lord Winston | 697 c41 (Link to this contribution) I am not certain what my noble friend is getting at. I thought that I had made it clear that it is v...
Lord Warner | 697 c62 (Link to this contribution) The noble Baroness, Lady Hollis, I do beg your pardon. We men and women are clearly totally intercha...
Lord Elton | 697 c19-20 (Link to this contribution) The noble Lord, Lord Winston, offered some reassuring words to the right reverend Prelate about how ...
Lord Patten | 697 c29-31 (Link to this contribution) It is axiomatic that fathers should be as visible and present as possible. Sometimes conversations o...
Lord Darzi of Denham | 697 c67 (Link to this contribution) It would be the Government’s great pleasure to debate that further, and to take some of the advice t...
Baroness Howarth of Breckland | 697 c46-7 (Link to this contribution) I had not intended to intervene in this debate, mainly because I feel I am not as expert as I might ...
Subjects
Children Codes of practice Counselling Fertility Homosexuality Human embryo experiments Diseases Donors Ethics IVF Fathers Parents Medicine Research Stem cells
Legislation
Human Fertilisation and Embryology Bill (HL) 2007-08
Link
View this Parliamentary proceeding on www.publications.parliament.uk