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Debate on bill and Committee proceeding on Tuesday, 11 December 2007, in the House of Lords.

Dormant Bank and Building Society Accounts Bill [HL]

Secondary information

Type
Parliamentary proceeding
Reference
697 c53-112GC 
Session
2007-08
Department
Treasury
Legislative stage
Committee stage
Procedure
New clauses
Chamber / Committee
House of Lords Grand Committee
Related items
Proceeding contributions
Baroness Noakes | 697 c104-5GC (Link to this contribution) Will the Minister explain that? If the Government wanted to repay National Savings & Investments—and...
Baroness Noakes | 697 c112GC (Link to this contribution) The noble Lord, Lord Shutt, has raised some important points, but I was simply probing what these te...
Show all contributions (160)
Baroness Noakes | 697 c110-1GC (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 33: 33: Clause 9, page 6, line 11, leave out subsection (1) The noble Barones...
Lord Newby | 697 c91GC (Link to this contribution) If that is the Government’s view—that this body should have borrowing powers—is that not the logical...
Lord Bach | 697 c94-5GC (Link to this contribution) I take that point. I shall respond by reminding the noble Viscount of the document produced by the B...
Lord Davies of Oldham | 697 c87GC (Link to this contribution) The noble Viscount will recognise the work that has been done with the banks and building societies ...
Lord Hamilton of Epsom | 697 c85GC (Link to this contribution) The amendment raises wider issues about what the management structure of the organisation will be. A...
Lord Davies of Oldham | 697 c90GC (Link to this contribution) That may be, but it is somewhat surprising, in two almost subsequent amendments, to be subject to an...
Lord Davies of Oldham | 697 c87GC (Link to this contribution) I am saying that we do not regard the issues as being necessarily prescriptive in legislation, which...
Lord Higgins | 697 c79GC (Link to this contribution) As the noble Lord, Lord Newby, pointed out, there are some similarities between what he is proposing...
Bishop of Chelmsford | 697 c68GC (Link to this contribution) Perhaps I may clarify that the relationship of the person or agency whose account has gone dormant, ...
Viscount Eccles | 697 c73GC (Link to this contribution) From the previous debate and this one, it seems to me that the difficulty we are in arises from Clau...
Baroness Noakes | 697 c57GC (Link to this contribution) My noble friend Lord Eccles asked the Minister whether this is a vote of no confidence in the FSA. C...
Lord Davies of Oldham | 697 c64-5GC (Link to this contribution) I am a great believer that if a debate ranges around the Committee the right conclusion is reached w...
Lord Higgins | 697 c54GC (Link to this contribution) I am also rather puzzled by this. In moving the amendment, my noble friend said that it was unusual ...
Baroness Noakes | 697 c105GC (Link to this contribution) If money is reunited with the account holder but the Government have to borrow money to reunite it, ...
Lord Davies of Oldham | 697 c108GC (Link to this contribution) The noble Lord, Lord Monson, is right on both counts and has answered the noble Lord, Lord Shutt. Th...
Lord Monson | 697 c108GC (Link to this contribution) Surely the answer to the noble Lord, Lord Shutt, is contained in Clause 7(1) which makes clear that ...
Lord Higgins | 697 c108GC (Link to this contribution) If it covers a foreign bank that happens to have a branch in the UK, does it apply to the dormant ac...
Lord Shutt of Greetland | 697 c109GC (Link to this contribution) I note what the Minister said, but it is important that we know who could be so-enabled. The debate ...
Lord Higgins | 697 c106GC (Link to this contribution) Am I to understand that the Government accept that a campaign must be launched to try to find the ri...
Lord Davies of Oldham | 697 c111-2GC (Link to this contribution) The noble Baroness leads me potentially into deep waters, and I shall cling pretty much to the ankle...
Lord Bach | 697 c112GC (Link to this contribution) I beg to move that the Committee be adjourned sine die.
Baroness Noakes | 697 c91GC (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 27: 27: Schedule 1, page 15, line 26, at end insert— ““( ) the name of each ba...
Lord Newby | 697 c92GC (Link to this contribution) Does the FSA maintain a list of banks and building societies?
Lord Bach | 697 c92GC (Link to this contribution) I am afraid that for once the noble Lord, Lord Shutt, is wrong. The reclaim fund will be required to...
Lord Bach | 697 c92GC (Link to this contribution) The noble Baroness says yes. The answer—which I think is obvious—is yes.
Viscount Eccles | 697 c94GC (Link to this contribution) Before the Minister sits down, does he accept that this is difficult for the Committee? Under the Co...
Lord Shutt of Greetland | 697 c95GC (Link to this contribution) Before the noble Baroness sits down, will the Minister answer this point? Before we get much further...
Lord Newby | 697 c96-7GC (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 29: 29: Schedule 1, page 15, line 32, at end insert— ““(1A) Such information, ...
Lord Davies of Oldham | 697 c86GC (Link to this contribution) When I talk about costs, of course I include salaries. I am talking about the costs of the scheme’s ...
Baroness Noakes | 697 c90GC (Link to this contribution) I do not think the Minister was listening when I introduced my amendment. I said it was a probing am...
Lord Hamilton of Epsom | 697 c89-90GC (Link to this contribution) The amendment raises interesting issues. Whatever organisation is operating, it is unusual for it no...
Baroness Noakes | 697 c87-8GC (Link to this contribution) This is increasingly unsatisfactory. We are being asked to pass a Bill without knowing much about wh...
Baroness Noakes | 697 c75-6GC (Link to this contribution) That is not a satisfactory response because that small detail should at least have been thought out....
Lord Higgins | 697 c83GC (Link to this contribution) Will the Minister comment on the suggestion of the noble Baroness that, once problems with the regis...
Baroness Finlay of Llandaff | 697 c81GC (Link to this contribution) It may be that I am confused. I understood that there will be an initial release of money, but there...
Baroness Noakes | 697 c81-2GC (Link to this contribution) The noble Baroness, Lady Pitkeathley, said that we must not forget that the Bill is about releasing ...
Baroness Finlay of Llandaff | 697 c82GC (Link to this contribution) Before the noble Baroness sits down, what is her view of the possibility that the reclaim fund itsel...
Lord Higgins | 697 c66GC (Link to this contribution) I had not intended to intervene again, but I suddenly realised that I may not have understood what i...
Baroness Noakes | 697 c67GC (Link to this contribution) The noble Lord, Lord Shutt, is absolutely right but the reclaim fund has to have information on whic...
Baroness Noakes | 697 c66-7GC (Link to this contribution) I would like to explore with the Minister what information the reclaim fund has to have. It is commo...
Lord Bach | 697 c74-5GC (Link to this contribution) The Treasury has no intention of putting its head in that particular noose, as the noble Lord so gra...
Lord Davies of Oldham | 697 c56-7GC (Link to this contribution) I apologise to the noble Lord. The Treasury will give a direction. But, of course, that might lead t...
Lord Higgins | 697 c56GC (Link to this contribution) The Minister has not answered my question on similar examples. If this kind of thing is going to go ...
Lord Davies of Oldham | 697 c57-8GC (Link to this contribution) We expect that the body will be accountable exactly in terms of its responsibilities and the effecti...
Lord Higgins | 697 c62-3GC (Link to this contribution) My noble friend has obviously spent a great deal of time drafting this complex amendment. I have to ...
Bishop of Chelmsford | 697 c63GC (Link to this contribution) I, too, have questions about the amendment and very much support the remarks of the noble Lord, Lord...
Lord Shutt of Greetland | 697 c64GC (Link to this contribution) I am not clear about the reclaim fund and how it will operate—perhaps nobody is. One way in which th...
Lord Hamilton of Epsom | 697 c63-4GC (Link to this contribution) I am slightly confused by all this. I understood that the banks had the ultimate responsibility for ...
Viscount Eccles | 697 c54GC (Link to this contribution) To add to what my noble friend Lady Noakes said, does not this direction power amount to a vote of n...
Baroness McIntosh of Hudnall | 697 c53GC (Link to this contribution) I remind noble Lords that if there is a Division in the Chamber while we are sitting, the Committee ...
Lord Newby | 697 c54GC (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to the noble Baroness for moving this amendment and wonder whether, in replying, the M...
Lord Higgins | 697 c105GC (Link to this contribution) If the Government have borrowed the money from these people, they owe it to them. The fact that the ...
Lord Davies of Oldham | 697 c106GC (Link to this contribution) What is being honoured is the debt which the state owed. The transfer of significant resources to th...
Lord Davies of Oldham | 697 c105-6GC (Link to this contribution) There is because, when this legislation becomes effective, these resources will flow to the reclaim ...
Lord Davies of Oldham | 697 c104GC (Link to this contribution) I was going to give a simpler answer, but I understand what the noble Lord, Lord Higgins, said. I sh...
Lord Davies of Oldham | 697 c108-9GC (Link to this contribution) The Committee should not forget that participation is voluntary. We are not talking about the Govern...
Lord Davies of Oldham | 697 c106GC (Link to this contribution) That is of course accepted as being of prime importance. National Savings & Investments is taking th...
Lord Shutt of Greetland | 697 c107-8GC (Link to this contribution) I rise to speak on clause stand part. I thought when I came here this afternoon that I was just a si...
Lord Shutt of Greetland | 697 c112GC (Link to this contribution) I wonder whether it would be appropriate—I just happen to have a copy of the Labour manifesto with m...
Baroness Noakes | 697 c109GC (Link to this contribution) Would not a constructive way forward be for the Government to undertake to provide to those noble Lo...
Baroness Fookes | 697 c112GC (Link to this contribution) The Committee is adjourned sine die.
Lord Davies of Oldham | 697 c91GC (Link to this contribution) Maybe that is too far back in time. The noble Lord’s capacity for recall far surpasses mine. If I ha...
Lord Shutt of Greetland | 697 c92GC (Link to this contribution) This is one of those simple matters where the Minister can say, ““I accept this””. The benefit is ob...
Baroness Noakes | 697 c93GC (Link to this contribution) I thank the noble Lord, Lord Shutt, for his support and the noble Lord, Lord Newby, for his penetrat...
Baroness Noakes | 697 c95GC (Link to this contribution) We have had another unsatisfactory discussion. The Minister has just read out a bit of the BBA’s doc...
Lord Bach | 697 c96GC (Link to this contribution) I repeat what has been said throughout from this side during the two days of Committee so far: this ...
Baroness Noakes | 697 c96GC (Link to this contribution) I thought I had withdrawn, but then I had something else to say on it. I beg leave to withdraw the a...
Baroness Fookes | 697 c96GC (Link to this contribution) We appear to have an interregnum. Is the noble Baroness seeking to withdraw now?
Lord Newby | 697 c99GC (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 30: 30: Schedule 1, page 16, line 2, at end insert— ““Directors to the Reclaim...
Lord Higgins | 697 c102-3GC (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 31: 31: Clause 7, page 5, line 24, after ““deposit-taker”” insert ““(including...
Lord Shutt of Greetland | 697 c103GC (Link to this contribution) I congratulate the noble Lord, Lord Higgins, on persuading the Public Bill Office that this was a pr...
Baroness Noakes | 697 c103-4GC (Link to this contribution) I have considerable sympathy for my noble friend’s amendment. I note that his account book is labell...
Baroness Noakes | 697 c100GC (Link to this contribution) We do not support the amendment in terms because we do not think that it is appropriate for the Gove...
Baroness Noakes | 697 c101GC (Link to this contribution) Perhaps I may intervene before the noble Lord, Lord Newby, decides what to do with his amendment. Th...
Lord Davies of Oldham | 697 c87GC (Link to this contribution) This legislation involves a fairly light regime. The private sector is eager to make progress on a p...
Lord Davies of Oldham | 697 c86GC (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to both noble Lords who have spoken. As we are talking about a body that is being set ...
Lord Newby | 697 c84GC (Link to this contribution) I am most grateful to the Minister. I do not want to prolong proceedings too much at this point. The...
Lord Davies of Oldham | 697 c90GC (Link to this contribution) I am sorry, I was addressing myself to the amendment rather than to the concepts the noble Baroness ...
Viscount Eccles | 697 c90GC (Link to this contribution) I am equally interested in the start-up of this company. When it starts, it has to have expenses. If...
Baroness Noakes | 697 c88-9GC (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 26: 26: Schedule 1, page 15, line 15, at end insert— ““No power to borrow The ...
Baroness Noakes | 697 c87GC (Link to this contribution) I asked who would own the shares or subscribe to the guarantee. The Minister cannot even tell me whe...
Baroness Noakes | 697 c76GC (Link to this contribution) No guarantee. However, the purpose of my amendment is to probe what happens. Although we hope it wil...
Lord Newby | 697 c83-4GC (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to all noble Lords who have spoken. On the Minister’s last comment, banks and building...
Lord Davies of Oldham | 697 c83GC (Link to this contribution) I see the refinement that the noble Baroness recommended and that the noble Lord, Lord Higgins, has ...
Lord Hamilton of Epsom | 697 c81GC (Link to this contribution) Can the noble Baroness clear up a point for me? I thought we were talking about accounts that had be...
Lord Davies of Oldham | 697 c66GC (Link to this contribution) Where the noble Baroness’s amendment would not be otiose is in that information that the reclaim fun...
Lord Hamilton of Epsom | 697 c65GC (Link to this contribution) Would the Minister agree that it is unlikely that a building society or bank would transfer to the r...
Lord Davies of Oldham | 697 c67-8GC (Link to this contribution) I have let the noble Baroness down because I did not introduce the crucial word ““audit”” at any sta...
Lord Shutt of Greetland | 697 c67GC (Link to this contribution) We are going a long way from the amendment but the question is how the reclaim fund is going to oper...
Lord Newby | 697 c72-3GC (Link to this contribution) The noble Baroness has asked a sensible question but I do not agree with the answer that she has com...
Baroness Noakes | 697 c70-2GC (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 23: 23: After Clause 5, insert the following new Clause— ““Treasury support fo...
Lord Hamilton of Epsom | 697 c73-4GC (Link to this contribution) I support my noble friend. The obligation has moved from the banks and building societies to the rec...
Baroness Noakes | 697 c75GC (Link to this contribution) Perhaps I may pick up on one aspect of the Minister’s response in relation to FSA regulation. Organi...
Viscount Eccles | 697 c57GC (Link to this contribution) Before the Minister sits down, I wonder if it would be helpful if another aspect of this were to be ...
Baroness Noakes | 697 c58GC (Link to this contribution) The debate has revealed that the reclaim fund is an unsatisfactory body. The Minister claims that th...
Lord Davies of Oldham | 697 c58GC (Link to this contribution) The noble Lord’s question deals with the level of competence and probity at which the Financial Serv...
Baroness Noakes | 697 c59GC (Link to this contribution) Or private company. The Minister has not yet produced such an example. I think that he will struggle...
Lord Davies of Oldham | 697 c59GC (Link to this contribution) That is a very detailed question. We are constructing legislation which seeks to guarantee that it i...
Lord Newby | 697 c63GC (Link to this contribution) I have two issues with the amendment. The first relates to our previous discussion. Is this a public...
Lord Davies of Oldham | 697 c54-5GC (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to noble Lords for identifying some issues regarding the reclaim fund. We have argued ...
Baroness Noakes | 697 c53-4GC (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 21: 21: Clause 5, page 4, line 27, leave out subsection (4) The noble Barones...
Lord Davies of Oldham | 697 c55GC (Link to this contribution) Acting responsibly means operating within the framework under which the fund has been set up. What i...
Lord Davies of Oldham | 697 c105GC (Link to this contribution) Of course they do when money is successfully identified as being owed to the borrowers, but the inte...
Lord Davies of Oldham | 697 c105GC (Link to this contribution) The resources available from National Savings & Investments would have been diverted to the objectiv...
Baroness Noakes | 697 c106GC (Link to this contribution) Is there any impact on public borrowing—I think the answer is no—and is there any impact on public e...
Lord Higgins | 697 c104GC (Link to this contribution) It depends on what happens to money supply and whether we think we are dealing with an inflationary ...
Baroness Noakes | 697 c108GC (Link to this contribution) The British Bankers’ Association is the main sponsor of the scheme that results from this legislatio...
Lord Higgins | 697 c106-7GC (Link to this contribution) So far as concerns the first objective of the scheme—namely, reuniting the owners of the debt with t...
Lord Davies of Oldham | 697 c112GC (Link to this contribution) The noble Lord will give due regard to the foresightedness of drafters of manifestos, who are unpara...
Baroness Fookes | 697 c111GC (Link to this contribution) I point out that if this amendment were agreed, I could not call Amendment No. 34 by reason of pre-e...
Lord Davies of Oldham | 697 c110GC (Link to this contribution) My noble friend commented on the drafting of the clause. We will take on board the noble Lord’s sugg...
Lord Monson | 697 c109-10GC (Link to this contribution) We touched on this matter yesterday. I did not pursue my Amendment No. 32, because, on reflection, i...
Lord Davies of Oldham | 697 c109GC (Link to this contribution) As ever, the noble Baroness makes an entirely reasonable request. I am delighted to respond to it po...
Baroness Noakes | 697 c91GC (Link to this contribution) I thank the Minister for clarifying that the Government think there is no problem with the reclaim f...
Baroness Noakes | 697 c91-2GC (Link to this contribution) Sorry, Amendment No. 27. I am excited about getting an answer to the last amendment, and I am still ...
Baroness Noakes | 697 c92GC (Link to this contribution) I can help the Minister on this. The answer is yes.
Lord Newby | 697 c92-3GC (Link to this contribution) In that case, could the Minister hazard a guess about how long it would take a competent member of s...
Lord Bach | 697 c93GC (Link to this contribution) The proposed obligation would be not on the FSA but on the reclaim fund. That is different. We do no...
Baroness Noakes | 697 c93-4GC (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 28: 28: Schedule 1, page 15, line 32, at end insert— ““( ) the amount of money...
Lord Bach | 697 c94GC (Link to this contribution) I repeat that the scheme is highly transparent. The noble Baroness had the answer to her amendment i...
Baroness Noakes | 697 c98GC (Link to this contribution) Parliament has its time taken up to create this body and there is therefore sufficient public intere...
Lord Bach | 697 c98GC (Link to this contribution) The noble Baroness is entirely wrong when she says that it has nothing to do with Parliament. Any pa...
Baroness Noakes | 697 c97GC (Link to this contribution) It will not surprise the Committee to learn that we fully support the amendment in the name of the n...
Lord Bach | 697 c97-8GC (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I repeat what I said in answer to Amendment No. 27. I know that I am at risk of repeating ...
Baroness Noakes | 697 c96GC (Link to this contribution) The Government cannot abdicate their responsibility in this regard. They have brought forward this B...
Lord Newby | 697 c98-9GC (Link to this contribution) I have the greatest respect for the Minister, but how he can believe that its incurring of some cost...
Lord Higgins | 697 c99-100GC (Link to this contribution) I have not participated in this series of debates on the exact nature of the fund and so on, but I a...
Lord Newby | 697 c101-2GC (Link to this contribution) At this stage of the day, for the noble Lord, Lord Higgins, to ask very astutely why we are here is ...
Lord Bach | 697 c100-1GC (Link to this contribution) I, too, agree with the noble Lord, Lord Newby, he will be pleased to hear, in that I do not think th...
Lord Higgins | 697 c101GC (Link to this contribution) I would be taking up the time of the Committee wrongly if I went into detail. I say only that this w...
Viscount Eccles | 697 c87GC (Link to this contribution) I shall pursue this matter one stage further. Would it not be better if Parliament could see an outl...
Lord Hamilton of Epsom | 697 c86GC (Link to this contribution) I did not realise that it was as unsatisfactory as that. Here the Bill is straining at the gnat of w...
Viscount Eccles | 697 c87GC (Link to this contribution) Perhaps I may ask the Minister one other question. Am I right in thinking that under the provisions ...
Lord Davies of Oldham | 697 c84GC (Link to this contribution) I can probably send the noble Lord almost any document under the sun before we get to Report stage a...
Baroness Noakes | 697 c84-5GC (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 25: 25: Schedule 1, page 15, line 7, leave out paragraph (b) The noble Barone...
Lord Higgins | 697 c80GC (Link to this contribution) Does the right reverend Prelate agree that, however vigorous the banks are in pursuing the accounts ...
Bishop of Chelmsford | 697 c80GC (Link to this contribution) That is entirely right and is a subsequent question, but when a charity is a beneficiary of an estat...
Baroness Pitkeathley | 697 c80GC (Link to this contribution) I declare an interest as a member of the Commission on Unclaimed Assets. The Committee should bear i...
Lord Hamilton of Epsom | 697 c80GC (Link to this contribution) I think I am on my own on this issue. I think this may be a fraudster’s charter. It is rather like s...
Lord Newby | 697 c76-9GC (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 24: 24: After Clause 5, insert the following new Clause— ““Register of dormant...
Bishop of Chelmsford | 697 c79-80GC (Link to this contribution) I am sure the Committee is aware that a coalition of 53 charities is sympathetic to this amendment o...
Baroness Finlay of Llandaff | 697 c80-1GC (Link to this contribution) I support this amendment, but I challenge the notion put forward by the noble Lord. Big charities ha...
Baroness Noakes | 697 c82GC (Link to this contribution) Not necessarily, partly because banks voluntarily put money into the reclaim fund, which does not de...
Lord Davies of Oldham | 697 c82-3GC (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Newby. The Government welcome all proposals that are directed ...
Lord Davies of Oldham | 697 c65GC (Link to this contribution) That might be so. The way in which the banks organise the necessary transfer of resources is a matte...
Lord Davies of Oldham | 697 c68GC (Link to this contribution) The noble Lord has largely answered his own question. He asked whether the banks and building societ...
Lord Hamilton of Epsom | 697 c68GC (Link to this contribution) Perhaps we can explore that a little further. If the noble Lord, Lord Shutt, finds a pass book in hi...
Baroness Noakes | 697 c69GC (Link to this contribution) We have heard very interesting exchanges on what the reclaim fund is about. The Minister believes th...
Lord Davies of Oldham | 697 c69GC (Link to this contribution) The right reverend Prelate is correct, except where there is a dispute, where the claimant goes into...
Lord Bach | 697 c75GC (Link to this contribution) I appreciate the question, and I do not think that the noble Baroness will be absolutely satisfied b...
Lord Davies of Oldham | 697 c57GC (Link to this contribution) I hear what the noble Viscount says, but, on the whole, creative activity on the part of Government ...
Lord Shutt of Greetland | 697 c58GC (Link to this contribution) I have followed this debate as best I can. There are two areas. The first is competence, and the Min...
Baroness Noakes | 697 c59GC (Link to this contribution) That is just one of the other unsatisfactory elements of this. The Government are creating in the Bi...
Baroness Noakes | 697 c59-61GC (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 22: 22: After Clause 5, insert the following new Clause— ““Confidentiality of ...
Baroness Noakes | 697 c55GC (Link to this contribution) That is a very interesting point. Can the Minister explain what he means by ““acting responsibly””? ...
Subjects
Disclosure of information Compensation Databases Codes of practice Charities Companies Assets Bank services Banks Building societies Fraud Finance Financial Services Authority Private sector Lotteries Public bodies Registration Regulation Repayments Shareholders Big Lottery Fund Commission on Unclaimed Assets
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