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Debate on bill on Wednesday, 23 April 2008, in the House of Lords.

Criminal Justice and Immigration Bill

Criminal Justice and Immigration Bill. Lords Report stage fourth day. New clauses considered. Part 1 of 2 records.

Secondary information

Type
Parliamentary proceeding
Reference
700 c1507-65 
Session
2007-08
Department
Ministry of Justice
Legislative stage
Report stage
Procedure
New clauses
Government defeats
Chamber / Committee
House of Lords chamber
Related items
Deposited Paper DEP2008-1127
Tuesday, 29 April 2008
Deposited papers
House of Lords
Deposited Paper DEP2008-1132
Tuesday, 29 April 2008
Deposited papers
House of Lords
Deposited Paper DEP2008-1134
Wednesday, 30 April 2008
Deposited papers
House of Lords
Proceeding contributions
Lord Judd | 700 c1510-1 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I hope my noble friend will be able to look sympathetically at the wisdom and good sense i...
Lord Kingsland | 700 c1517-8 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I have provoked exactly the response I had hoped for from the noble Earl. I am aware that...
Show all contributions (95)
Lord Brabazon of Tara | 700 c1517 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, if Amendment No. 88E is agreed to, I cannot call Amendments Nos. 89 or 90.
Lord Bach | 700 c1565 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I beg to move that further consideration on Report be now adjourned. In moving this Motion...
Lord Hunt of Kings Heath | 700 c1507 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I beg to move that the Bill be now further considered on Report. Moved accordingly, and, ...
Earl of Onslow | 700 c1507 (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 88: 88: Clause 75, page 53, line 39, after ““D”” insert ““reasonably”” The no...
Earl of Onslow | 700 c1510 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, perhaps I may make one very quick point. When we discussed this matter in the Joint Commit...
Lord Thomas of Gresford | 700 c1507-8 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I support the noble Earl. I draw your Lordships’ attention to the well argued view in the ...
Lord Neill of Bladen | 700 c1508-10 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I question the appropriateness of this clause. A later amendment, to which the noble Lord,...
Lord Davidson of Glen Clova | 700 c1529 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I immediately agree that one should not pick and choose, but one seeks to avoid the curate...
Lord Neill of Bladen | 700 c1529 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, before the noble Lord sits down, perhaps he will respond to this problem. I think he state...
Lord Davidson of Glen Clova | 700 c1528-9 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I immediately accept that the noble Lord said that. I was trying to suggest that perhaps t...
Lord Thomas of Gresford | 700 c1528 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, with the greatest respect, if the noble and learned Lord would like to read my Second Read...
Lord Mackay of Clashfern | 700 c1526 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, this clause is intended either to alter the law or to be a complete exposition of the law....
Baroness Butler-Sloss | 700 c1526-7 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, the wording of the amended Clause 75 will give an overbusy Court of Appeal Criminal Divisi...
Lord Elystan-Morgan | 700 c1527 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I have no doubt at all that the clause as amended by the Government would give wholly the ...
Lord Davidson of Glen Clova | 700 c1527-8 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, the amendment is straightforward in that it would simply strike out the clause. However, t...
Lord Mayhew of Twysden | 700 c1527 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, we were reminded earlier today that this clause takes its origins from a political posture...
Lord Ramsbotham | 700 c1527 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I shall add a small peripheral point, picking up on the remarks of my noble friend Lord Ne...
Lord Kingsland | 700 c1522-3 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I am grateful to the Minister for his response and to all those who have contributed to th...
Lord Davidson of Glen Clova | 700 c1522 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, that indicates that areas of clarification may be required in our law. The clause seeks to...
Earl of Onslow | 700 c1525 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, the noble Lord opposite said that the purpose of the clause is to explain common law and s...
Lord Thomas of Gresford | 700 c1525 (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 92: 92: Clause 75, leave out Clause 75 The noble Lord said: My Lords, as I in...
Lord Neill of Bladen | 700 c1525-6 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, this time I very much support what the noble Lord said. I shall make four points. If the c...
Lord Elystan-Morgan | 700 c1520 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I respectfully agree. Perhaps I may take up the point made so firmly by the noble Lord, Lo...
Lord Davidson of Glen Clova | 700 c1520-1 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, Amendments Nos. 91A and 92A take us back down a somewhat familiar path towards the grossly...
Earl of Onslow | 700 c1521 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, when the noble and learned Lord says that it makes it clear, to whom is the law on this is...
Lord Davidson of Glen Clova | 700 c1521-2 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, it may not come as a complete surprise that the audience for questions of self-defence ext...
Lord Elystan-Morgan | 700 c1522 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I hope I may ask the Minister without discourtesy if he could assist me in these two matte...
Baroness Butler-Sloss | 700 c1520 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I sought to make the point that if there is to be a change in the law, it should go to the...
Lord Elystan-Morgan | 700 c1520 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I have no objection to the matter being considered by the Law Commission, although I belie...
Baroness Butler-Sloss | 700 c1519-20 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, Amendments Nos. 88 to 91 seek to make changes to this difficult and sensitive area of the ...
Lord Neill of Bladen | 700 c1519 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I shall make two points quite simply on this amendment. First, it treats quite separately ...
Lord Thomas of Gresford | 700 c1518-9 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, what the right honourable gentleman Mr Jack Straw did not say to the Labour Party conferen...
Lord Kingsland | 700 c1517 (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 91A: 91A: Clause 75, leave out Clause 75 and insert the following new Clause— ...
Earl of Onslow | 700 c1517 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I was not referring to the opposition Front Bench; we all know that they are fountains of ...
Lord Hunt of Kings Heath | 700 c1517 (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 88E: 88E: Clause 75, page 54, line 18, leave out subsections (8) and (9) On Q...
Earl of Onslow | 700 c1516 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, they do. I was completely convinced by what the noble Lord, Lord Neill, said. I also thoug...
Lord Hunt of Kings Heath | 700 c1516 (Link to this contribution) moved Amendments Nos. 88A to 88D: 88A: Clause 75, page 54, line 1, leave out ““(4) and (5)”” inser...
Lord Davidson of Glen Clova | 700 c1513-5 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, as well as responding to the amendment moved by the noble Earl, Lord Onslow, I shall also ...
Lord Kingsland | 700 c1513 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, although I am always eager to support my noble friend Lord Onslow in the Lobby, on this oc...
Earl of Onslow | 700 c1516 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, it is extremely daunting, as someone who, before the Flood, collected five O-levels and ne...
Lord Thomas of Gresford | 700 c1516 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I shall make my position clear. I argued both at Second Reading and in Committee that the ...
Baroness Butler-Sloss | 700 c1511 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, this is a question not of clarity but of a change in the law. It is a difficult, delicate ...
Lord Mayhew of Twysden | 700 c1511 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I add a modicum of support for what the noble Lord, Lord Neill of Bladen, said, in urging ...
Lord Elystan-Morgan | 700 c1511-2 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I respectfully agree with the sentiments of the noble and learned Lord, Lord Mayhew, and o...
Lord Thomas of Gresford | 700 c1551 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, does the noble Lord accept that this Government have moved the goalposts? Magistrates’ cou...
Lord West of Spithead | 700 c1551 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, perhaps I could explain this a bit better. It is always dangerous to give examples, but I ...
Earl of Onslow | 700 c1550 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, surely if somebody goes to a trades union meeting and goes around punching people, he gets...
Lord West of Spithead | 700 c1549-50 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, as has been noted, Amendments Nos. 95B and 101AA provide an exhaustive list of the prohibi...
Lord Lloyd of Berwick | 700 c1549 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I support the amendment in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Kingsland, in preference to th...
Baroness Stern | 700 c1548-9 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I, too, support the amendment, although all of us on the Joint Committee on Human Rights w...
Earl of Onslow | 700 c1548 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I support my noble friend Lord Kingsland. He may consider that to be either a relief or a ...
Lord Wallace of Tankerness | 700 c1547-8 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I acknowledge the fact that the Government have come forward with their own amendment that...
Lord Kingsland | 700 c1546-7 (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 95B: 95B: Clause 96, page 72, line 12, after ““conditions”” insert ““as specif...
Lord West of Spithead | 700 c1551 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I am afraid I have to disagree with the noble Lord. I think that this is an extremely good...
Earl of Onslow | 700 c1557 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I am grateful that the Government have listened to what I said. Whether they have listened...
Lord West of Spithead | 700 c1558 (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 99D: 99D: Clause 97, page 72, line 32, after ““person”” insert ““aged 18 or ov...
Lord West of Spithead | 700 c1557-8 (Link to this contribution) moved Amendments Nos. 99A to 99C: 99A: Clause 96, page 72, line 21, leave out ““the”” and insert “...
Lord West of Spithead | 700 c1555-6 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, Amendments Nos. 96 and 97 to 99 seek to narrow the scope of violent offender orders by req...
Lord Kingsland | 700 c1554-5 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, we are sympathetic with the desire to identify precisely what risk an individual poses; bu...
Lord West of Spithead | 700 c1556-7 (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 96A: 96A: Clause 96, page 72, line 15, leave out ““a period of at least 2 year...
Lord Wallace of Tankerness | 700 c1556 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I am grateful to the Minister for his reply and for the offer, which I took up earlier thi...
Lord Wallace of Tankerness | 700 c1554 (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 96: 96: Clause 96, page 72, line 13, leave out ““the public”” and insert ““a p...
Lord Henley | 700 c1532 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, as the noble Baroness, Lady Miller, reminded the House, the Government, in the form of the...
Baroness Miller of Chilthorne Domer | 700 c1531-2 (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 92B: 92B: Before Clause 76, insert the following new Clause— ““Unlawfully obta...
Lord Thomas of Gresford | 700 c1529 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, that is the most extraordinary statement I can ever remember hearing. Here is an attempt t...
Lord Hunt of Kings Heath | 700 c1535 (Link to this contribution) moved Amendments Nos. 94B and 94C: 94B: Clause 76, leave out Clause 76 and insert the following ne...
Baroness Miller of Chilthorne Domer | 700 c1534-5 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I thank the Minister for the strength of his reply, which sends an important message to un...
Lord Hunt of Kings Heath | 700 c1533-4 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, in my usual place, between a rock and a hard place, I respond positively to both the noble...
Earl of Erroll | 700 c1532 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, yesterday, I was at Infosec on a panel with the Information Commissioner on this very subj...
Earl of Erroll | 700 c1538 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I should like to make a few comments on this issue because I am very much involved in the ...
Baroness Miller of Chilthorne Domer | 700 c1535-7 (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 95: 95: After Clause 76, insert the following new Clause— ““Data protection: a...
Lord Henley | 700 c1537-8 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, as the noble Baroness, Lady Miller of Chilthorne Domer, has pointed out, we have Amendment...
Earl of Erroll | 700 c1539 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, the Minister said that the review would be conducted across central government. Perhaps I ...
Lord Hunt of Kings Heath | 700 c1538-9 (Link to this contribution) I do not disagree with the noble Baroness, Lady Miller, the noble Lord, Lord Henley, or the noble Ea...
Baroness Miller of Chilthorne Domer | 700 c1539-40 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I thank the noble Earl, Lord Erroll, for his comments. He made a valuable point about comp...
Lord Hunt of Kings Heath | 700 c1539 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I take the point and of course it would be one of the factors in terms of data sharing mor...
Bishop of Newcastle | 700 c1543-4 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I do not want to think of this latest attempt to abolish Section 2 of the Ecclesiastical C...
Lord Thomas of Gresford | 700 c1542-3 (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 95A: 95A: After Clause 77, insert the following new Clause— ““Abolition of rel...
Baroness Andrews | 700 c1545-6 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I am delighted that the noble Lord, Lord Avebury, who has been such a champion of the amen...
Baroness Park of Monmouth | 700 c1544-5 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I read recently that there had been a case in a church somewhere in London where an attack...
Lord Thomas of Gresford | 700 c1546 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, one only has to think of the history of Henry VIII to wish that there had been at that tim...
Lord Kingsland | 700 c1560 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, we support the amendment tabled by the noble Lord, Lord Wallace, for one simple reason. Th...
Earl of Onslow | 700 c1561 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, it is a dangerous start to think that one can just apply these orders, which, whatever the...
Lord Wallace of Tankerness | 700 c1558-60 (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 99DA: 99DA: Clause 97, page 72, line 33, at beginning insert ““Subject to subs...
Earl of Onslow | 700 c1562 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, the noble Lord looked pained then. He is here to answer questions from Members of the Hous...
Lord Bassam of Brighton | 700 c1562 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I understand the point about hearsay evidence, but a current risk assessment must be under...
Lord Thomas of Gresford | 700 c1561 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, it is time we got round to some clarity of thinking. We are not going to have magistrates’...
Lord Bassam of Brighton | 700 c1561-2 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, Amendments Nos. 99DA, 99DB and 99DC amend the definition of a qualifying offender for a vi...
Lord Wallace of Tankerness | 700 c1563 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I am grateful to the Minister for his reply. I am not persuaded by the points that he adva...
Lord Hunt of Kings Heath | 700 c1564 (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 99E: 99E: Clause 98, page 74, line 6, leave out subsection (4) On Question, a...
Lord Wallace of Tankerness | 700 c1557 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, my noble friend Lord Thomas of Gresford, and I tabled amendments in Committee relating to ...
Lord Kingsland | 700 c1552 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, the Minister has replied in his characteristically open-handed and conciliatory manner, an...
Subjects
Disciplinary proceedings Data protection Criminal proceedings Crime Armed forces Crimes of violence Court orders Burglary Journalism Offenders Protest Newspaper press Religion Religious buildings Freedom of association Self-defence
Legislation
Ecclesiastical Courts Jurisdiction Act 1860
Criminal Justice and Immigration Bill 2006-07 to 2007-08
Link
View this Parliamentary proceeding on www.publications.parliament.uk