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Debate on bill and Committee proceeding on Monday, 9 March 2009, in the House of Lords.

Health Bill [HL]

Health Bill (HL). Lords Committee stage fifth day. Clauses 19 to 22 agreed to. Grand Committee held in the Moses Room.

Secondary information

Type
Parliamentary proceeding
Reference
708 c381-438GC 
Session
2008-09
Department
Department of Health
Legislative stage
Committee stage
Procedure
New clauses
Chamber / Committee
House of Lords Grand Committee
Related items
Deposited Paper DEP2009-1557
Monday, 9 March 2009
Deposited papers
House of Lords
Deposited Paper DEP2009-1559
Monday, 9 March 2009
Deposited papers
House of Lords
Proceeding contributions
Earl of Listowel | 708 c384GC (Link to this contribution) The noble Earl, Lord Howe, raised some important facts about the statistics and evidence in this mat...
Lord Naseby | 708 c396GC (Link to this contribution) Could the noble Baroness share the comfort that she intends to offer the small shop owner representa...
Show all contributions (143)
Lord Naseby | 708 c397GC (Link to this contribution) Will the Minister clarify that? Is she saying that Her Majesty’s Government will not meet with any o...
Baroness Thornton | 708 c409GC (Link to this contribution) I said in my remarks that prosecutions for proxy purchasing of alcohol are rare. I will endeavour to...
Lord Naseby | 708 c424GC (Link to this contribution) I am most grateful to the Minister for what is quite a full answer. She is right to draw attention t...
Baroness Tonge | 708 c427GC (Link to this contribution) I thought that nicotine patches were an effective substitute for nicotine addiction, but it is even ...
Baroness Tonge | 708 c438GC (Link to this contribution) A quite extraordinary peace seems to have descended on the Moses Room; we may not have peace on eart...
Baroness Tonge | 708 c438GC (Link to this contribution) I thank the Minister once again, and I look forward to the resumption of hostilities next time. I be...
Baroness O'Cathain | 708 c433GC (Link to this contribution) I thank the noble Lord. I am very glad that he said that and that it is now on the record, because o...
Lord Palmer | 708 c388GC (Link to this contribution) I raised at Second Reading the problem of the imported illegal tobacco trade, and I re-emphasise the...
Lord Rea | 708 c384-5GC (Link to this contribution) In my contribution last Thursday I referred to a speech in December 2006 by Geoff Good, the global b...
Lord Naseby | 708 c386-7GC (Link to this contribution) I am most grateful to the noble Baroness for her patronage. She will know that there are hundreds of...
Lord Laird | 708 c383-4GC (Link to this contribution) While not wishing to elongate this debate, I want to put the record right. At col. GC 375 the noble ...
Earl Howe | 708 c381GC (Link to this contribution) Clause 19: Prohibition of tobacco displays etc Debate on Clause 19 stand part resumed. Before oth...
Lord Naseby | 708 c389GC (Link to this contribution) May I just clarify that for the noble Baroness? Advertising is paid-for communication through all so...
Baroness O'Cathain | 708 c395GC (Link to this contribution) I am sorry to interrupt the Minister, but it struck me that all these display gantries are actually ...
Baroness Thornton | 708 c390-5GC (Link to this contribution) I am very glad to receive the noble Baroness’s support. I listened very carefully to the noble Earl...
Baroness Cumberlege | 708 c397GC (Link to this contribution) What is the date on that statement? Is that before or after the new legislation?
Baroness Cumberlege | 708 c397GC (Link to this contribution) So it does not actually relate to the ban on the 18 year-olds.
Baroness Thornton | 708 c398GC (Link to this contribution) I thank the noble Baroness for those comments. The general public are concerned about youth smoking....
Lord Stoddart of Swindon | 708 c401GC (Link to this contribution) I was mentioning the tobacco retailers. Some noble Lords, particularly those who are members of new ...
Baroness Tonge | 708 c401GC (Link to this contribution) This is really a point of order. I am a relatively new Member of this House, and I seek guidance fro...
Lord Stoddart of Swindon | 708 c402GC (Link to this contribution) If we are going to go into personal experiences, I was born in the Rhondda valley and my father was ...
Lord Laird | 708 c402GC (Link to this contribution) On the question of employment, would the noble Lord advocate that we retained capital punishment on ...
Lord Faulkner of Worcester | 708 c406-7GC (Link to this contribution) Not for the first time, I find myself agreeing with everything that the noble Baroness, Lady Howarth...
Baroness Coussins | 708 c405-6GC (Link to this contribution) I support the noble Earl’s amendment to create a new offence of proxy purchase. I do so because of m...
Lord Stoddart of Swindon | 708 c402GC (Link to this contribution) All right, if we are going into real personal experiences: my father smoked all his life from the ti...
Lord Crisp | 708 c410GC (Link to this contribution) Clause 20: Power to prohibit or restrict sales from vending machines Amendment 87 87: Clause 20, p...
Lord Stoddart of Swindon | 708 c409GC (Link to this contribution) So we do not really know what we are talking about.
Baroness Thornton | 708 c408GC (Link to this contribution) I will write to the noble Lord with the details.
Lord Naseby | 708 c412GC (Link to this contribution) I am sorry to interrupt the noble Lord. In the survey to which he referred, the children were asked ...
Lord Monson | 708 c414GC (Link to this contribution) The noble Lord who moved the amendment asserted that adults who wanted to buy cigarettes could easil...
Lord Campbell-Savours | 708 c414-5GC (Link to this contribution) I want to argue a very different case, which has little to do with children and a lot more to do wit...
Baroness Tonge | 708 c416GC (Link to this contribution) I support the amendment, but I confess that as a child I was in love with vending machines. I do not...
Baroness Howarth of Breckland | 708 c415-6GC (Link to this contribution) I used the phrase "public places". I am also concerned about age-verification systems, because those...
Lord Crisp | 708 c420GC (Link to this contribution) I thank the noble Baroness for her reply. I understand that she is being cautious in reaching a rath...
Baroness Thornton | 708 c422-4GC (Link to this contribution) The amendments would remove the power to prohibit tobacco vending machines and limit regulations so ...
Baroness Thornton | 708 c420GC (Link to this contribution) I propose that the Committee adjourn for 10 minutes and that we reconvene at 6.10 pm. Sitting suspe...
Lord Naseby | 708 c420GC (Link to this contribution) Amendment 88 88: Clause 20, page 25, line 4, leave out "prohibiting or"
Lord Campbell-Savours | 708 c426-7GC (Link to this contribution) I shall speak to proposed new subsection (2) in Amendment 104 when we reach Amendment 105, because I...
Baroness Thornton | 708 c438GC (Link to this contribution) This may be a convenient moment to adjourn the Committee, since we know that the next amendment is g...
Lord Stoddart of Swindon | 708 c430GC (Link to this contribution) It might surprise the noble Baroness to learn that I am going to support her amendment.
Lord Stoddart of Swindon | 708 c431GC (Link to this contribution) I did not really go along that line. All that I did—
Baroness Cumberlege | 708 c432-3GC (Link to this contribution) I, too, support the amendments. This seems to be a therapeutic part of the evening where we are all ...
Lord Stoddart of Swindon | 708 c431GC (Link to this contribution) The noble Lord suggested that I left the Labour Party. Of course, I did not leave the Labour Party; ...
Baroness O'Cathain | 708 c433GC (Link to this contribution) This point tracks back to what the noble Lord, Lord Stoddart, said. I was relieved that he was actua...
Lord Judd | 708 c433GC (Link to this contribution) What I thought I heard the noble Baroness say in her earlier intervention was a very important contr...
Lord Palmer | 708 c434GC (Link to this contribution) As the only male Member of the Committee who smokes, I fully endorse both of these amendments. Inter...
Lord Naseby | 708 c387-8GC (Link to this contribution) The noble Earl is correct that I have considerable marketing experience. He, along with all other no...
Lord Monson | 708 c388GC (Link to this contribution) There are three further reasons why Clause 19 should be rejected, over and above those advanced so a...
Lord Stoddart of Swindon | 708 c383GC (Link to this contribution) As the noble Lord, Lord Laird, mentioned me during his prolonged remarks, I should state exactly wha...
Lord Bassam of Brighton | 708 c381GC (Link to this contribution) I thought the Committee might welcome this. I am conscious that there has been some prolonged debate...
Lord Colwyn | 708 c381GC (Link to this contribution) If there is a Division in the Chamber while we are sitting, the Committee will adjourn as soon as th...
Lord Walton of Detchant | 708 c389GC (Link to this contribution) I do not propose to detain the Committee for long in the light of what the Chief Whip said a little ...
Baroness Young of Old Scone | 708 c389-90GC (Link to this contribution) I know that the Minister is dying to get going—just one more intervention. It is difficult when the ...
Earl Howe | 708 c396GC (Link to this contribution) What the small shops are afraid of is not a gradual tailing off of tobacco turnover, but a sudden ce...
Baroness Thornton | 708 c395-6GC (Link to this contribution) The noble Baroness is correct. I am coming to that point next. The Government have set out in the re...
Lord Naseby | 708 c397GC (Link to this contribution) I should point out to the Minister that the survey to which I referred was carried out by Trading St...
Baroness Thornton | 708 c398GC (Link to this contribution) We are just following the international codes on the dealings one should have with the tobacco indus...
Lord Stoddart of Swindon | 708 c401GC (Link to this contribution) Indeed, that is what I said. Noble Lords—
Baroness Thornton | 708 c402GC (Link to this contribution) My mother is not a coal miner—she has never been down a coal mine in her life—but she smoked for 50 ...
Baroness Howarth of Breckland | 708 c402GC (Link to this contribution) If you have watched your mother suffocate with emphysema, you will have a view about smoking–related...
Baroness Thornton | 708 c402GC (Link to this contribution) I echo the noble Baroness’s point of view in respect of my own mother.
Lord Stoddart of Swindon | 708 c401GC (Link to this contribution) I do not want to keep the Committee for too much longer but, as I say, I was assured that in Committ...
Baroness Golding | 708 c407GC (Link to this contribution) I also support the amendment. I chair CitizenCard, which is a proof-of-age card mostly funded by the...
Baroness Thornton | 708 c407-8GC (Link to this contribution) Amendment 86 would make it illegal for adults to buy tobacco on behalf of children, a practice known...
Earl Howe | 708 c403-4GC (Link to this contribution) I turn to an issue that I hope the Minister will want to look at seriously—that is, how the current ...
Baroness Howarth of Breckland | 708 c406GC (Link to this contribution) Although the noble Earl will know that I cannot support him in relation to displays or vending machi...
Earl Howe | 708 c409GC (Link to this contribution) This has been a useful short debate, and I thank all noble Lords who have spoken in support of the a...
Lord Stoddart of Swindon | 708 c409GC (Link to this contribution) I am glad that she was well briefed. My other question arises from what the noble Baroness, Lady Cou...
Lord Stoddart of Swindon | 708 c408GC (Link to this contribution) Before he does so, I have a couple of short questions for the Minister. First, will she remind me wh...
Baroness Thornton | 708 c408GC (Link to this contribution) The issue that we are keeping under review relates, first, to seeing how the new sanctions being int...
Lord Campbell-Savours | 708 c408GC (Link to this contribution) I cannot understand what my noble friend means by "under review". Surely, if proposed new subsection...
Baroness Finlay of Llandaff | 708 c413GC (Link to this contribution) I strongly support the amendment for several reasons. It is slightly worrying that the noble Lord, L...
Lord Crisp | 708 c410GC (Link to this contribution) I shall speak also to the other amendments in the group. The purpose of most of these amendments is ...
Lord Naseby | 708 c412GC (Link to this contribution) The noble Lord said that perhaps other products can be put in them, but they cannot. They are specia...
Lord Crisp | 708 c412GC (Link to this contribution) I am grateful for that intervention. Perhaps I may move on to say that this is a somewhat muddled co...
Lord Crisp | 708 c412-3GC (Link to this contribution) I do not think that my argument depends on 17 per cent being the precise figure. My argument is that...
Baroness Finlay of Llandaff | 708 c414GC (Link to this contribution) I am delighted to hear the noble Lord, Lord Naseby, say that it is too high. On that, we certainly a...
Baroness Thornton | 708 c417-20GC (Link to this contribution) Amendments 87, 89, 91 and 96, ably moved by the noble Lord, Lord Crisp, would make a number of chang...
Baroness Tonge | 708 c425GC (Link to this contribution) Amendment 104 104: After Clause 22, insert the following new Clause— "Report on comprehensive strat...
Lord Naseby | 708 c424-5GC (Link to this contribution) I apologise for interrupting very briefly. In answer to an earlier question—I may be quoting her inc...
Baroness O'Cathain | 708 c428GC (Link to this contribution) That was an amazing contribution from the noble Lord, Lord Campbell-Savours. I preface my comments b...
Earl of Listowel | 708 c428-9GC (Link to this contribution) I offer my support for a comprehensive strategy. Indeed, my name is added to Amendment 107A, which p...
Lord Campbell-Savours | 708 c427GC (Link to this contribution) I wish I could convince my sister of that. She has had them and they have not worked. There are a lo...
Baroness Thornton | 708 c438GC (Link to this contribution) I know that this is in my briefing, and I will certainly inform the Committee, but right now I canno...
Earl of Listowel | 708 c438GC (Link to this contribution) What are the targets for children, and what success has there been in achieving them?
Baroness Thornton | 708 c438GC (Link to this contribution) It will be for England and Wales. In answer to the noble Earl, Lord Listowel, our aim is to reduce ...
Lord Stoddart of Swindon | 708 c430-1GC (Link to this contribution) I think that it is a very good amendment. We have been dealing with this problem piecemeal over a lo...
Lord Judd | 708 c431-2GC (Link to this contribution) We can debate this issue some other time. All that I was going to say was that my noble friend—he wa...
Baroness Finlay of Llandaff | 708 c433-4GC (Link to this contribution) It seems that a lot of the action the Government have already taken has been in support of different...
Lord Laird | 708 c434GC (Link to this contribution) I apologise to the Committee; I was in the Chamber for the Statement on the tragic events over the w...
Baroness Howarth of Breckland | 708 c388-9GC (Link to this contribution) I beg indulgence for two minutes, because I was not here on Thursday and I must confess to being tot...
Earl of Listowel | 708 c387GC (Link to this contribution) I should like to put a brief question to the noble Lord. I believe that I am correct in saying that ...
Lord Naseby | 708 c385-6GC (Link to this contribution) I think that we forget too easily some of the basic facts of this market. The situation now is that ...
Baroness Young of Old Scone | 708 c386GC (Link to this contribution) I am a regular shopper in the noble Lord’s daughter’s shop, which is a very upmarket, glitzy cookwar...
Lord Laird | 708 c383GC (Link to this contribution) No, I very much appreciate and acknowledge those remarks. However, this is an extremely important de...
Baroness O'Cathain | 708 c383GC (Link to this contribution) I thank the noble Lord for giving way. I think that the point he is raising is one to which we will ...
Lord Laird | 708 c381-3GC (Link to this contribution) I appreciate the noble Earl’s words. In the debate in the Northern Ireland Assembly that took place ...
Baroness Thornton | 708 c396GC (Link to this contribution) I have gone into some detail about how we think this will work and why we think that it will not hav...
Baroness Thornton | 708 c396GC (Link to this contribution) I hope that I have given some comfort on that, and I will certainly talk to their representatives wh...
Baroness Northover | 708 c398GC (Link to this contribution) We will indeed discuss an amendment that I tabled that relates to the WHO guidelines, which state th...
Baroness Thornton | 708 c397GC (Link to this contribution) The noble Lord may have a point there, and I will certainly check it. However, I think that it is ve...
Baroness Tonge | 708 c401GC (Link to this contribution) Before the noble Lord continues—
Earl Howe | 708 c398-400GC (Link to this contribution) Last Thursday, the noble Baroness, Lady Young, questioned where I was coming from in arguing against...
Lord Stoddart of Swindon | 708 c400GC (Link to this contribution) We have not finished yet. When I objected to the Bill being taken in Grand Committee, I was told, "T...
Baroness O'Cathain | 708 c401GC (Link to this contribution) I thank the noble Lord for giving way. I want to ask one question. This statistic of 80,000 jobs dep...
Lord Colwyn | 708 c401GC (Link to this contribution) We are still debating the Question that Clause 19 stand part of the Bill.
Lord Stoddart of Swindon | 708 c402GC (Link to this contribution) That was a bit flippant, wasn’t it? There was only one executioner and his assistant. We do not have...
Lord Walton of Detchant | 708 c404-5GC (Link to this contribution) I have the greatest admiration and respect for the noble Earl, Lord Howe, and the principles underly...
Earl Howe | 708 c403GC (Link to this contribution) Amendment 86 86: After Clause 19, insert the following new Clause— "Purchase of tobacco on behalf o...
Baroness Thornton | 708 c409GC (Link to this contribution) I know what the noble Lord is talking about. The answer is £2,500. I did not recall it straight away...
Lord Naseby | 708 c410GC (Link to this contribution) Could the noble Lord remind the Committee of the location of vending machines? Is it not a fact that...
Lord Crisp | 708 c410-1GC (Link to this contribution) May I come back to that in a moment? The figure is not quite as high as 99 per cent, but it is subst...
Lord Crisp | 708 c412GC (Link to this contribution) I am not disguising the fact that vending machine manufacturers would suffer under this amendment bu...
Lord Faulkner of Worcester | 708 c412GC (Link to this contribution) Does the noble Lord agree that there is nothing particularly unique about the shape of a tobacco pac...
Lord Naseby | 708 c414GC (Link to this contribution) There is no point in having a debate in Committee when we both refer to the same survey and one refe...
Baroness Howarth of Breckland | 708 c415GC (Link to this contribution) I, too, support the amendment. I always find it slightly illogical that we have reached a point wher...
Lord Monson | 708 c415GC (Link to this contribution) I correct the noble Baroness. It is perfectly permissible to smoke in hotel rooms if the hotel desig...
Lord Walton of Detchant | 708 c417GC (Link to this contribution) Whenever I am able to escape from your Lordships’ House, I thoroughly enjoy playing a game of golf. ...
Baroness O'Cathain | 708 c416GC (Link to this contribution) The noble Lord, Lord Crisp, said that he had seen the report in the Irish Times. The issue was that ...
Lord Faulkner of Worcester | 708 c417GC (Link to this contribution) I have also added my name to nearly all the amendments tabled by the noble Lord, Lord Crisp, and I c...
Earl Howe | 708 c421-2GC (Link to this contribution) I shall speak to my Amendment 90, which is grouped here. I view the Government’s proposals on vendin...
Lord Stoddart of Swindon | 708 c420GC (Link to this contribution) Before we go further, I forgot that I was a retired member of UNITE when I quoted from its brief, wh...
Lord Naseby | 708 c421GC (Link to this contribution) Bearing in mind the debate we have just had, I can be relatively brief on my amendment. It states th...
Baroness Tonge | 708 c425-6GC (Link to this contribution) I suggest the insertion of a new clause, as is pretty clearly stated in the Marshalled List. There h...
Baroness Thornton | 708 c425GC (Link to this contribution) I shall indeed look at what I said and what the noble Lord said, and hopefully we will agree at leas...
Lord Patel | 708 c426GC (Link to this contribution) I support the amendment. I shall speak to my Amendment 107A, and I thank the noble Lords, Lord Rea a...
Baroness Thornton | 708 c435-8GC (Link to this contribution) This has been an interesting and informative debate. I shall approach it in two major parts. The fir...
Viscount Ullswater | 708 c438GC (Link to this contribution) The Committee stands adjourned until Wednesday.
Lord Faulkner of Worcester | 708 c429-30GC (Link to this contribution) I am pleased to add my support to both these amendments, which are similar and have a common aim. I ...
Lord Judd | 708 c431GC (Link to this contribution) I support these two amendments, in particular Amendment 107A, to which I have put my name. I was par...
Lord Stoddart of Swindon | 708 c433GC (Link to this contribution) I merely stated the fact that those companies will do that; I was not supporting it. I was stating t...
Earl of Listowel | 708 c434GC (Link to this contribution) I remind the Committee of what was said earlier by the noble Baroness, Lady Golding, and the noble L...
Subjects
Children Advertising Age Canada Health services Health hazards Health authorities NHS Northern Ireland Proof of identity New Zealand Young people Shops Tobacco Smuggling Iceland Vending machines
Legislation
Health Bill (HL) 2008-09
Link
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