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Debate on bill and Committee proceeding on Thursday, 2 July 2009, in the House of Lords.

Welfare Reform Bill

Welfare Reform Bill. Lords Committee stage eighth day. Clauses 26 to 43 agreed to, with clause 37 agreed to as amended. Schedule 5 agreed to. Schedule 6 under consideration. Grand Committee held in the Moses Room.

Secondary information

Type
Parliamentary proceeding
Reference
712 c95-154GC 
Session
2008-09
Department
Department for Work and Pensions
Legislative stage
Committee stage
Procedure
New clauses
Chamber / Committee
House of Lords Grand Committee
Related items
Proceeding contributions
Lord Skelmersdale | 712 c141GC (Link to this contribution) Before the Minister continues, perhaps I may tell him very firmly that the Front Bench in the Conser...
Lord Pannick | 712 c144-5GC (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to the Minister for his full reply. He told us that it is not a matter of punishment, ...
Show all contributions (126)
Lord McKenzie of Luton | 712 c145GC (Link to this contribution) If the noble Lord will permit me, the key issue here, whatever description we put on it—he said that...
Lord Pannick | 712 c145GC (Link to this contribution) I am obliged to the noble Lord. I am not disputing that the relevant people have brought it upon the...
Lord Haskel | 712 c154GC (Link to this contribution) The Committee stands adjourned until Tuesday at 3.30 pm.
Lord Skelmersdale | 712 c129GC (Link to this contribution) At last it is becoming clearer in, as I said earlier, my somewhat confused mind. I am extremely grat...
Lord McKenzie of Luton | 712 c129GC (Link to this contribution) Clause 37: The appropriate authority by which regulations under section 33 are made Amendment 170 ...
Lord Goodlad | 712 c137-8GC (Link to this contribution) The amendments are tabled in my name and that of the noble Lord, Lord Pannick, and were unanimously ...
Lord McKenzie of Luton | 712 c135-7GC (Link to this contribution) I am grateful for the noble Lord’s support for the statement. I shall perhaps leave aside the extent...
Lord McKenzie of Luton | 712 c127-8GC (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Skelmersdale, for giving me the opportunity to explain why the...
Baroness Thomas of Winchester | 712 c111-3GC (Link to this contribution) The amendment is modelled on a subsection of the Health Bill that permits direct payments for health...
Baroness Turner of Camden | 712 c103GC (Link to this contribution) I thank my noble friend, as I do the noble Lord, Lord Skelmersdale, for his intervention, which I we...
Lord McKenzie of Luton | 712 c108GC (Link to this contribution) I start by thanking the noble Baroness, Lady Campbell, for moving this amendment, her strong leaders...
Lord McKenzie of Luton | 712 c98GC (Link to this contribution) I am sure we can make available the type of notifications that exist under the current sanctions reg...
Lord McKenzie of Luton | 712 c96-8GC (Link to this contribution) I thank the noble Baroness for this amendment. It gives me the opportunity, I hope, to clarify the m...
Baroness McIntosh of Hudnall | 712 c95GC (Link to this contribution) I remind the Committee that if there is a Division in the Chamber while we are sitting, the Committe...
Baroness Thomas of Winchester | 712 c100-1GC (Link to this contribution) I offer very warm support from these Benches for this proposal, moved so ably by the noble Baroness,...
Baroness Turner of Camden | 712 c99-100GC (Link to this contribution) I am indebted to the Royal British Legion for the text of this amendment and for the accompanying br...
Lord Pannick | 712 c138-9GC (Link to this contribution) I strongly support what has been said by the noble Lord, Lord Goodlad. I apologise to him and to nob...
Lord McKenzie of Luton | 712 c145GC (Link to this contribution) This happens at the end of quite a long process when all the other mechanisms to collect money have ...
Lord Goodlad | 712 c146GC (Link to this contribution) To follow what the noble Lord, Lord Pannick, said, I am grateful to the Minister for his customary c...
Lord Goodlad | 712 c147GC (Link to this contribution) The Minister echoes what I have just said: the Bill proposes an administrative procedure costing a v...
Lord Skelmersdale | 712 c147GC (Link to this contribution) Clause 43: Report on operation of driving licences amendments Amendment 175 175: Clause 43, page 4...
Lord Skelmersdale | 712 c147-8GC (Link to this contribution) This is quite a big group of amendments, including Amendments 175, 175A, 176, 177, 178, 178ZA, 178ZB...
Lord Northbourne | 712 c145GC (Link to this contribution) The point of my intervention is that this does not seem to be at all different from money that I owe...
Lord Skelmersdale | 712 c149GC (Link to this contribution) No, I am afraid not. I am reminded of a line from "Oklahoma", sung by the rather flighty girlfriend ...
Lord Skelmersdale | 712 c149-51GC (Link to this contribution) Schedule 6, introduced by Clause 46, proposes compulsory joint birth registration for unmarried pare...
Lord Goodlad | 712 c148GC (Link to this contribution) I support the sentiments expressed by my noble friend Lord Skelmersdale. The Select Committee, in pa...
Lord Skelmersdale | 712 c154GC (Link to this contribution) Things are becoming a little clearer. I am glad that I asked the question because I am not sure that...
Lord McKenzie of Luton | 712 c130-1GC (Link to this contribution) Amendments 171 to 174 171: Clause 37, page 42, line 26, at end insert— "(c) in relation to provisio...
Lord Goodlad | 712 c137GC (Link to this contribution) Clause 42: Disqualification for holding etc. driving licence or travel authorisation Amendment 174A...
Lord McKenzie of Luton | 712 c137GC (Link to this contribution) I can certainly bring that issue to the attention of the commission.
Lord Northbourne | 712 c137GC (Link to this contribution) After such a deluge of good news, I would have given anything to the noble Lord. I fully accept the ...
Lord McKenzie of Luton | 712 c133-5GC (Link to this contribution) I thank the noble Lord, Lord Northbourne, for this amendment. With the leave of the Committee, perha...
Lord Skelmersdale | 712 c132-3GC (Link to this contribution) During the past four weeks, and indeed at Second Reading, I felt the need to speak several times abo...
Baroness Campbell of Surbiton | 712 c118-20GC (Link to this contribution) This is probably one of my favourite amendments. I have waxed lyrical on this subject for 18 months....
Baroness Campbell of Surbiton | 712 c118GC (Link to this contribution) Amendment 164 164: Clause 33, page 39, line 11, leave out from "particular," to end of line 22 and ...
Baroness Wilkins | 712 c121GC (Link to this contribution) I strongly support the amendments, which seek to ensure that the radical policy of a right to contro...
Baroness Campbell of Surbiton | 712 c125GC (Link to this contribution) I thank the noble Baronesses, Lady Thomas and Lady Wilkins, and the noble Lords, Lord Skelmersdale a...
Lord Skelmersdale | 712 c128GC (Link to this contribution) The longer these debates go on, the more confused I am becoming. Clause 31(5) specifically excludes ...
Lord McKenzie of Luton | 712 c111GC (Link to this contribution) I was hoping that the noble Baroness was going to say that we could go to the Terrace.
Baroness Turner of Camden | 712 c114-5GC (Link to this contribution) I support everything that has just been said. Speaking from my own experience, a number of years ago...
Lord Northbourne | 712 c113GC (Link to this contribution) I was not intending to intervene in this debate, but the noble Baroness talked about the complicatio...
Lord McKenzie of Luton | 712 c116-7GC (Link to this contribution) I thank the noble Baroness for this amendment and all noble Lords who have spoken. We have had some ...
Baroness Thomas of Winchester | 712 c117-8GC (Link to this contribution) I thank all Members of the Grand Committee who have spoken and supported the amendment. Some very gr...
Lord Skelmersdale | 712 c115GC (Link to this contribution) I second the view of the noble Baroness, Lady Campbell. Of course I agree that access to peer suppor...
Lord McKenzie of Luton | 712 c118GC (Link to this contribution) We started a consultation process around the right to control a couple of weeks ago. Where we go wit...
Baroness Campbell of Surbiton | 712 c103GC (Link to this contribution) Clause 31: Relevant services Amendment 162 162: Clause 31, page 38, line 9, leave out subsections ...
Lord Skelmersdale | 712 c103GC (Link to this contribution) I cannot tell the noble Lord precisely what discussions have gone on thus far, but it is clear that ...
Lord McKenzie of Luton | 712 c110GC (Link to this contribution) I do not have a work-in-progress report from the Law Commission. As I said, the work is underway and...
Countess of Mar | 712 c101GC (Link to this contribution) I, too, give the amendment my warm support. Most of these people will not be in the income tax brack...
Lord McKenzie of Luton | 712 c98GC (Link to this contribution) I do not have the document in front of me, but I believe that that is focused on the progression-to-...
Baroness Thomas of Winchester | 712 c98-9GC (Link to this contribution) There is a case for saying that the first sanction across all regimes should be a warning letter. Th...
Baroness Thomas of Winchester | 712 c98GC (Link to this contribution) I am grateful for the support for the amendment around the Grand Committee. I am a bit confused, how...
Baroness Thomas of Winchester | 712 c139GC (Link to this contribution) I have very little to add to what the noble Lords, Lord Goodlad and Lord Pannick, have said, except ...
Lord Skelmersdale | 712 c139-41GC (Link to this contribution) Many Members of this Committee will remember the Child Maintenance and Other Payments Bill of 2007 v...
Baroness Meacher | 712 c146GC (Link to this contribution) I hope that I may be forgiven for intervening but I am very impressed by the arguments that have bee...
Lord McKenzie of Luton | 712 c147GC (Link to this contribution) I apologise for interrupting the noble Lord again. To pick up on one point raised by the noble Baron...
Baroness Crawley | 712 c154GC (Link to this contribution) No, it is in order to locate the father. Secondly, the registrar, as I understand it, has to take th...
Lord Skelmersdale | 712 c149GC (Link to this contribution) Schedule 6: Registration of births Amendment 178ZBA 178ZBA: Schedule 6, page 93, leave out line 10...
Baroness Crawley | 712 c151-3GC (Link to this contribution) I thank the noble Lord, Lord Skelmersdale, for putting forward his amendments. I understand their pr...
Lord McKenzie of Luton | 712 c148-9GC (Link to this contribution) I thank the noble Lord, Lord Skelmersdale, for the amendments, whose effect would be to make the dis...
Baroness Crawley | 712 c154GC (Link to this contribution) I should be delighted to talk quietly later and, if the noble Lord would wish it, to write to him. T...
Lord Skelmersdale | 712 c154GC (Link to this contribution) I understand that; I am not worried about that. I am worried about a situation where the name of the...
Lord Skelmersdale | 712 c130GC (Link to this contribution) All social security law applies across the whole of the United Kingdom, even though individual bits ...
Lord Northbourne | 712 c131GC (Link to this contribution) Amendment 174ZA 174ZA: Before Clause 42, insert the following new Clause— "Parental responsibility ...
Lord McKenzie of Luton | 712 c129GC (Link to this contribution) I am happy to be pinned down on this—or I think I am. The Government have committed to include in tr...
Lord Northbourne | 712 c137GC (Link to this contribution) I beg leave to withdraw the amendment. Amendment 174ZA withdrawn.
Lord Northbourne | 712 c131-2GC (Link to this contribution) We now turn to the aspects of the Bill that relate to child maintenance. Part 3 is about improving t...
Lord Skelmersdale | 712 c121-2GC (Link to this contribution) The noble Baroness, Lady Wilkins, is considerably braver than I would dare to be when referring to h...
Lord Geddes | 712 c125-6GC (Link to this contribution) It has been suggested that this might be a convenient moment to break for 15 minutes. The Committee ...
Baroness Turner of Camden | 712 c127GC (Link to this contribution) I support the amendment in one respect. I said in a debate on a previous amendment, referring to my ...
Lord McKenzie of Luton | 712 c128-9GC (Link to this contribution) The structure of the Bill sets out the types of services and funding streams that would be envisaged...
Baroness Thomas of Winchester | 712 c111GC (Link to this contribution) Clause 33: Power to make provision enabling exercise of greater choice and control Amendment 163 1...
Baroness McIntosh of Hudnall | 712 c111GC (Link to this contribution) It has been suggested that, in view of the temperature, it might be for the convenience of noble Lor...
Baroness Wilkins | 712 c113GC (Link to this contribution) I support the noble Baroness, Lady Thomas, in this amendment. I absolutely agree with her that direc...
Lord Skelmersdale | 712 c115-6GC (Link to this contribution) Thank you. They may well have concerns about employing their own staff, or not be aware of exactly w...
Baroness Thomas of Winchester | 712 c118GC (Link to this contribution) I thank the Minister very much for that offer, and I shall examine exactly what he said in his earli...
Lord Geddes | 712 c118GC (Link to this contribution) The next amendment is Amendment 164, to be moved by the noble Baroness, Lady Campbell of Surbiton.
Baroness Turner of Camden | 712 c102GC (Link to this contribution) I thank my noble friend the Minister for that response and noble Lords for contributing to the debat...
Lord McKenzie of Luton | 712 c101-2GC (Link to this contribution) I congratulate my noble friend Lady Turner on moving this amendment. She may have come close to unif...
Lord Skelmersdale | 712 c102-3GC (Link to this contribution) Perhaps I may quickly intervene before the noble Baroness withdraws the amendment. The Minister said...
Baroness Thomas of Winchester | 712 c105GC (Link to this contribution) I am very glad to be able to support the noble Baroness, Lady Campbell, in this amendment, and final...
Baroness Campbell of Surbiton | 712 c103-5GC (Link to this contribution) Before I speak to the amendment, I should inform the Committee that, due to weather conditions and m...
Countess of Mar | 712 c105-6GC (Link to this contribution) The Equality and Human Rights Commission has written to me asking me to support these amendments, wh...
Baroness Wilkins | 712 c106GC (Link to this contribution) Speaking for myself, I strongly support this amendment. It removes the exclusion of community care s...
Lord McKenzie of Luton | 712 c108-10GC (Link to this contribution) Accountants are much more objective. In 2005, the Government made public their commitment to work t...
Baroness Campbell of Surbiton | 712 c110-1GC (Link to this contribution) I thank all noble Lords who have supported the amendment: the noble Countess, Lady Mar, the noble Ba...
Lord Skelmersdale | 712 c95-6GC (Link to this contribution) My view is and has always been that we are dealing with sanctions for violent conduct—in other words...
Countess of Mar | 712 c96GC (Link to this contribution) I, too, support the noble Baroness, Lady Thomas, in her amendment. We must be not only fair but seen...
Lord McKenzie of Luton | 712 c141GC (Link to this contribution) I start by thanking the noble Lord, Lord Goodlad, for this amendment. I think that the debate we are...
Lord McKenzie of Luton | 712 c141-4GC (Link to this contribution) I am sure that that is right. Amendments 174A and 174C to 174F remove from the commission the power ...
Lord Northbourne | 712 c145GC (Link to this contribution) Why is this then not a simple matter of debt collection?
Lord McKenzie of Luton | 712 c146GC (Link to this contribution) Before the noble Lord finally withdraws the amendment, I want to ensure that I have clearly on the r...
Lord Goodlad | 712 c146-7GC (Link to this contribution) I believe the noble Baroness to be absolutely correct. I have not developed the point because it wou...
Lord Skelmersdale | 712 c153-4GC (Link to this contribution) I suppose that in the spirit of the past eight days that was a conflated response to a conflated set...
Baroness Crawley | 712 c154GC (Link to this contribution) I underline two points. First, yes, the registrar can write to the last known address; it does not h...
Lord McKenzie of Luton | 712 c154GC (Link to this contribution) This may be a convenient moment for the Committee to adjourn until Tuesday at 3.30 pm.
Lord McKenzie of Luton | 712 c130GC (Link to this contribution) Yes. The amendment reflects the difference in the state of devolution between Scotland and Wales. Le...
Lord Skelmersdale | 712 c129GC (Link to this contribution) At last it is becoming clearer in my confused mind, to which I referred earlier. I suspect that Amen...
Lord McKenzie of Luton | 712 c130GC (Link to this contribution) I shall also speak to the other government amendments in the group. Since introducing the Bill my mi...
Lord Skelmersdale | 712 c129GC (Link to this contribution) I know, because we were told earlier, that the Minister does not like being pinned down, but can he ...
Lord Skelmersdale | 712 c135GC (Link to this contribution) I am sure that the Minister is about to turn to this particular amendment, but every Member of the C...
Baroness Thomas of Winchester | 712 c120-1GC (Link to this contribution) It is very disappointing that the language of the Bill does not appear to reflect the policy intende...
Baroness Wilkins | 712 c121GC (Link to this contribution) We cannot repeat this pattern under a right to control. It must be different. I know that much of t...
Lord Skelmersdale | 712 c124-5GC (Link to this contribution) I am not sure whether the Minister was choosing his words particularly carefully when he said, "I am...
Lord Northbourne | 712 c122GC (Link to this contribution) Without having any great expertise on this particular issue, the basic issue is whether the services...
Lord McKenzie of Luton | 712 c122-4GC (Link to this contribution) I thank the noble Baroness for the amendment. I am pleased that it is her favourite as it is the one...
Lord McKenzie of Luton | 712 c125GC (Link to this contribution) We, in this context, are the Government. As in all of these things, I am very happy to have a shared...
Lord Skelmersdale | 712 c126GC (Link to this contribution) Amendment 167 167: Clause 34, page 40, line 34, leave out subsection (3)
Lord Skelmersdale | 712 c126GC (Link to this contribution) Having had several interesting and instructive debates about the merits of direct control, the benef...
Baroness Thomas of Winchester | 712 c127GC (Link to this contribution) Is the phrase "in all the circumstances" going to be spelt out in regulations?
Baroness Campbell of Surbiton | 712 c115GC (Link to this contribution) I am not going to hold the Committee up by supporting the amendment again at too great a length, but...
Baroness Hollis of Heigham | 712 c113-4GC (Link to this contribution) If the Committee will indulge me, I will repeat an incident that happened to me over Easter when I w...
Lord Skelmersdale | 712 c106-8GC (Link to this contribution) The noble Baroness, Lady Campbell, started with what I can only describe as a devastating critique o...
Lord Skelmersdale | 712 c110GC (Link to this contribution) I picked up three things from what the Minister said. First, he spoke of putting people first, and i...
Lord Skelmersdale | 712 c98GC (Link to this contribution) The Minister pointed out that sanctions already exist in the field of actively seeking work under th...
Baroness Thomas of Winchester | 712 c95GC (Link to this contribution) Clause 26: Attendance in connection with jobseeker's allowance: sanctions Amendment 158 158: Claus...
Baroness Thomas of Winchester | 712 c95GC (Link to this contribution) In moving the amendment, I am well aware that the Minister has said in terms that the first sanction...
Lord Skelmersdale | 712 c100GC (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to the noble Baroness, Lady Turner, and I support her in this endeavour—rare though th...
Baroness Turner of Camden | 712 c99GC (Link to this contribution) Amendment 161A 161A: After Clause 28, insert the following new Clause— "Income-related benefits In ...
Subjects
Council tax benefits Disability Child support Children Disclosure of information Devolved matters Curriculum Community care Absent parents Direct payments Jobseeker's allowance Finance Education Driving Disqualification Domestic abuse Exemptions Legislative competence Harassment Fathers Maintenance Pilot schemes Pensioners Parents Payments National Assembly for Wales Passports Lone parents Scotland Social security Social security benefits Registration Voluntary organisations Wales Registration of births, deaths, marriages and civil partnerships Travel restrictions Social services Take-up Unemployed people Child Maintenance and Enforcement Commission Employment and support allowance Veterans
Legislation
Welfare Reform Bill 2008-09
Link
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