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Debate on bill and Committee proceeding on Thursday, 7 January 2010, in the House of Lords.

Bribery Bill [HL]

Bribery Bill (HL). Lords Committee stage first day. Clauses 1 to 9 agreed to. Grand Committee held in the Moses Room.

Secondary information

Type
Parliamentary proceeding
Reference
716 c21-72GC 
Session
2009-10
Department
Ministry of Justice
Legislative stage
Committee stage
Procedure
New clauses
Chamber / Committee
House of Lords Grand Committee
Related items
Deposited Paper DEP2010-0175
Thursday, 21 January 2010
Deposited papers
House of Lords
Proceeding contributions
Lord Bach | 716 c72GC (Link to this contribution) I repeat that in our view accountability stays with the Attorney-General as I have tried to describe...
Lord Bach | 716 c71GC (Link to this contribution) Perhaps I may just finish the point and then of course I shall give way. Perhaps one day the noble L...
Show all contributions (101)
Lord Thomas of Gresford | 716 c61GC (Link to this contribution) 17: After Clause 8, insert the following new Clause— "Advisory service (1) The relevant department m...
Lord Mackay of Clashfern | 716 c54-5GC (Link to this contribution) I must inquire why this guidance should not be statutory if it is clear that it will be taken into a...
Lord Thomas of Gresford | 716 c55GC (Link to this contribution) I support what the noble and learned Lord, Lord Mackay of Clashfern, has just said. Would the Minist...
Lord Williamson of Horton | 716 c47-8GC (Link to this contribution) We are dealing with a point which was recognised as very important at Second Reading; namely, the pr...
Lord Goodhart | 716 c46-7GC (Link to this contribution) I start by apologising to the Committee for having become so overheated that I seemed to set forth a...
Lord Lyell of Markyate | 716 c51GC (Link to this contribution) I support the objective of these amendments. Will the Minister clarify, if it is not already clear, ...
Lord Bach | 716 c33-4GC (Link to this contribution) My Lords, the noble and learned Lord’s amendments seek to amend the general bribery offences by intr...
Baroness Whitaker | 716 c35GC (Link to this contribution) Does the noble and learned Lord accept that the problem is not cases that were quashed, it is cases ...
Lord Lyell of Markyate | 716 c34-5GC (Link to this contribution) I am most grateful to the Minister. Of course, I have read all that and I have looked at the cases. ...
Lord Lyell of Markyate | 716 c32GC (Link to this contribution) I have every sympathy with what my noble and learned friend said, and with half of the argument of t...
Lord Borrie | 716 c25GC (Link to this contribution) The use of the word "improper", which I know the noble and learned Lord wishes to expand on in his a...
Lord Lyell of Markyate | 716 c21GC (Link to this contribution) I will speak to Amendments 1 to 4, which are happily grouped together. Indeed, I suggested that they...
Lord Bach | 716 c71-2GC (Link to this contribution) I think I knew that too. We all agree, I hope, that there is need for a consent provision for the n...
Baroness Whitaker | 716 c68-9GC (Link to this contribution) My Lords, with some trepidation as a citizen rather than a lawyer, I would like to say why I think t...
Lord Goodhart | 716 c68GC (Link to this contribution) My Lords, there is a most distinguished league of former Attorneys-General sitting nowadays on the C...
Lord Mackay of Clashfern | 716 c67GC (Link to this contribution) My Lords, noble Lords will not be surprised to learn that I feel rather strongly about this matter. ...
Lord Henley | 716 c65GC (Link to this contribution) 18: Clause 9, page 6, line 11, leave out paragraphs (a) to (c) and insert "the Attorney General"
Lord Bach | 716 c70GC (Link to this contribution) My Lords, with these amendments the noble Lord, Lord Henley, seeks to retain the requirement to obta...
Lord Henley | 716 c60GC (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I shall speak also to Amendment 13. Again, these are probing amendments which I hope are s...
Lord Thomas of Gresford | 716 c61-3GC (Link to this contribution) This is a proposal to add an additional clause to this part of the Bill, which is headed, "Failure o...
Earl of Onslow | 716 c63GC (Link to this contribution) My Lords, it is, after all, a British idea, because when it was introduced, Hong Kong was a British ...
Lord Henley | 716 c56-7GC (Link to this contribution) 9: Clause 7, page 5, line 10, at end insert "and, where A is a contractor to C or a fellow member of...
Lord Henley | 716 c56GC (Link to this contribution) My Lords, it seems that the assurance from the noble Lord is that we will have a draft of what might...
Lord Tunnicliffe | 716 c51-2GC (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I have received guidance from the noble Lord, Lord Henley, on probing amendments and not r...
Earl of Onslow | 716 c52-3GC (Link to this contribution) Will the noble Lord give way on that? The Proceeds of Crime Act was used recently in relation to a c...
Lord Tunnicliffe | 716 c54GC (Link to this contribution) The noble Earl touches on the difference between our two approaches. We are not proposing to put the...
Lord Goodhart | 716 c54GC (Link to this contribution) My experience is that powers of guidance, as opposed to the creation of something that is binding as...
Lord Mackay of Clashfern | 716 c48-9GC (Link to this contribution) I support the probing of the word "adequate" in this clause, which is the purpose of the amendment p...
Lord Thomas of Gresford | 716 c50GC (Link to this contribution) My Lords, sometimes I wonder if the Secretary of State for Business et cetera is seeking to have the...
Lord Borrie | 716 c50-1GC (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I support the substantive point made by the noble and learned Lord, Lord Mackay of Clashfe...
Lord Henley | 716 c49-50GC (Link to this contribution) Before my noble and learned friend sits down, I assure him that on the small question of the nomencl...
Lord Henley | 716 c39GC (Link to this contribution) 5: Clause 6, page 3, line 42, after "is" insert "corruptly"
Viscount Simon | 716 c46GC (Link to this contribution) Unfortunately there is smoke coming up from somewhere and I have been asked to adjourn the Committee...
Earl of Onslow | 716 c44GC (Link to this contribution) My Lords, this hospitality business is extraordinarily difficult. I think that we all realise that. ...
Lord Tunnicliffe | 716 c43GC (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I spent a lot of time going through this clause, trying to find the places where questions...
Lord Tunnicliffe | 716 c41-3GC (Link to this contribution) My Lords, Amendments 5, 6 and 7 in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Henley, seek to qualify the Clau...
Lord Bach | 716 c34GC (Link to this contribution) I can only quote from the Law Commission’s report. Paragraph 2.33 states: ""Both the 1889 and the 19...
Lord Lyell of Markyate | 716 c35GC (Link to this contribution) It is true that the DPP claims to have looked back only 15 years, but 15 years is pretty significant...
Lord Goodhart | 716 c29GC (Link to this contribution) Before the noble and learned Lord sits down, perhaps I may ask for his views on what was said by the...
Lord Mackay of Clashfern | 716 c29GC (Link to this contribution) I think that there is a question about where proportionality comes in. We are trying to define an of...
Lord Lyell of Markyate | 716 c25GC (Link to this contribution) I am extremely grateful, because the noble Baroness, Lady Whitaker, has pointed up the dilemma. If t...
Lord Goodhart | 716 c27GC (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I believe that Amendments 1 to 4 introduced by the noble and learned Lord, Lord Lyell of M...
Lord Lyell of Markyate | 716 c27-8GC (Link to this contribution) I take the noble Lord's point in relation to the word "dishonesty". Although I would not give it muc...
Lord Lyell of Markyate | 716 c25GC (Link to this contribution) I am very grateful to the noble Baroness. I must apologise for a serious frailty, which is that I we...
Lord Williamson of Horton | 716 c30GC (Link to this contribution) Unfortunately, the Minister cannot escape from facilitation payments, even on Amendment 1. I am afra...
Baroness Whitaker | 716 c31GC (Link to this contribution) I should say, following, the noble and learned Lord, Lord Mackay of Clashfern, that it is pretty cle...
Lord Mackay of Clashfern | 716 c72GC (Link to this contribution) That is the factual position as I have known it, but the accountability of the Attorney-General for ...
Lord Henley | 716 c66-7GC (Link to this contribution) In moving this amendment, I will also speak to Amendments 19 and 20. Amendment 18 refers to who must...
Lord Thomas of Gresford | 716 c64-5GC (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I draw the Government’s attention to the Joint Committee report. I would like them to take...
Lord Tunnicliffe | 716 c58-9GC (Link to this contribution) My Lords, Amendment 9, tabled by the noble Lord, Lord Henley, seeks to address circumstances in whic...
Lord Henley | 716 c59-60GC (Link to this contribution) My Lords, yet again I look forward to seeing the guidance, or rather the draft of what is to be in t...
Lord Henley | 716 c60GC (Link to this contribution) 12: Clause 7, page 5, line 26, leave out from "Kingdom" to end of line 27
Lord Tunnicliffe | 716 c60-1GC (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I shall do my best. These amendments relate to the definition of a relevant commercial org...
Lord Mackay of Clashfern | 716 c63GC (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I must say that I think this is a very good idea. I think I am right in saying that on Sec...
Lord Henley | 716 c55-6GC (Link to this contribution) My Lords, we will want to consider these matters very carefully. I will deal with the four amendment...
Lord Tunnicliffe | 716 c53GC (Link to this contribution) The fact that it was overturned on appeal reinforces the assurance that I am giving in the sense tha...
Earl of Onslow | 716 c54GC (Link to this contribution) Why will be guidance not come before Parliament? This is an extremely important document. For someth...
Earl of Onslow | 716 c48GC (Link to this contribution) I remember when we heard that the United States Government had provided guidance for their companies...
Lord Lyell of Markyate | 716 c38-9GC (Link to this contribution) It was absolutely and completely scandalous and should have been clamped down on much, much harder a...
Lord Thomas of Gresford | 716 c37-8GC (Link to this contribution) Since we are in Committee, I may be permitted to speak in support of the Government’s approach. Brib...
Lord Bach | 716 c37GC (Link to this contribution) I accept what the noble and learned Lord said in the sense that it is not worth us debating whether ...
Lord Bach | 716 c35-6GC (Link to this contribution) There may even be cases that were brought before the court but which the jury for some reason or oth...
Lord Henley | 716 c45-6GC (Link to this contribution) I shall speak also to Amendment 10. I understand that this is also grouped with Amendments 11 and 16...
Lord Henley | 716 c44GC (Link to this contribution) I have not been to the Onslow Arms, but I am sure that it is a very reputable place. The Minister d...
Lord Lyell of Markyate | 716 c43GC (Link to this contribution) The Minister referred to the OECD requirements and laid proper emphasis on the question of undue hos...
Lord Mackay of Clashfern | 716 c43GC (Link to this contribution) My Lords, perhaps I may draw the noble Lord’s attention to a small point on subsection (3)(a) which ...
Earl of Onslow | 716 c32GC (Link to this contribution) I must apologise, first, for being slightly late and, secondly, for letting my telephone off not onc...
Lord Goodhart | 716 c28GC (Link to this contribution) With respect to the noble and learned Lord, that simply strengthens the argument that the new wordin...
Baroness Whitaker | 716 c25GC (Link to this contribution) Of course. I just said for the sake of completeness that my comment after the noble Lord, Lord Waddi...
Lord Lyell of Markyate | 716 c25-7GC (Link to this contribution) The noble Lord brings me on to the next part of my probing. In his reply at Second Reading, the Mini...
Lord Goodhart | 716 c21GC (Link to this contribution) I am a member of Transparency International; my noble friend is not.
Lord Mayhew of Twysden | 716 c31-2GC (Link to this contribution) I largely support my noble and learned friend for many reasons which he knows very well, but I am tr...
Lord Mackay of Clashfern | 716 c30GC (Link to this contribution) Yes, of course. The only trouble is that some of the barge people will be from the United States. Th...
Earl of Onslow | 716 c71GC (Link to this contribution) I must set the record straight. It was purely an idle lapse of memory, which confused me. I was not ...
Lord Henley | 716 c72GC (Link to this contribution) My Lords, in my generous way and in accordance with proceedings of the Committee, I shall in due cou...
Earl of Onslow | 716 c69-70GC (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I think that what we are looking at here is the result recently, or over the past 25 years...
Lord Tunnicliffe | 716 c63-4GC (Link to this contribution) My Lords, Amendment 17 brings us back to the issue of adequate procedures for the purpose of Clause ...
Lord Hodgson of Astley Abbotts | 716 c70GC (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I have not so far participated in the proceedings on this Bill but I should like to say a ...
Lord Henley | 716 c57GC (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I will speak also to Amendment 15. Amendment 9 also deals with Clause 7, which, as we have...
Lord Henley | 716 c61GC (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I am not sure whether I am much the wiser for that, but I shall read it most carefully in ...
Lord Tunnicliffe | 716 c55GC (Link to this contribution) My Lords, we are coming to an area where we do not share common ground. We do not believe that there...
Lord Tunnicliffe | 716 c56GC (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I am afraid that we have not given that assurance, much as it might satisfy people. We wil...
Lord Goodhart | 716 c53GC (Link to this contribution) I am most grateful to the Minister for giving way. Could he explain what seems to be the rather diff...
Lord Tunnicliffe | 716 c53-4GC (Link to this contribution) My Lords, we have made the point that if it is that simple, it is exactly the same as the assurance ...
Lord Henley | 716 c39-41GC (Link to this contribution) My Lords, the previous debate having made it clear that we are broadly content with the approach tak...
Lord Lyell of Markyate | 716 c38GC (Link to this contribution) I am most grateful to all noble Lords who have taken part in this debate. I am glad that I initiated...
Lord Mackay of Clashfern | 716 c36-7GC (Link to this contribution) With respect, that is the doubtful issue. I do not believe that the person paying in that situation ...
Lord Henley | 716 c44GC (Link to this contribution) 8: Clause 7, page 5, line 8, leave out "adequate"
Lord Tunnicliffe | 716 c43-4GC (Link to this contribution) My Lords, my understanding is that the Bill does not at any point define undue hospitality, but the ...
Lord Lyell of Markyate | 716 c34GC (Link to this contribution) As I understood the Minister, he said that the analysis by the Law Commission showed that it had not...
Lord Henley | 716 c32-3GC (Link to this contribution) My Lords, thinking back to my noble and learned friend Lord Lyell of Markyate’s earlier definitions ...
Lord Mackay of Clashfern | 716 c28-9GC (Link to this contribution) My Lords, it is important to have in mind the situation of facilitation payments that my noble and l...
Baroness Whitaker | 716 c24-5GC (Link to this contribution) The noble and learned Lord referred to my presence. I do not know whether he was going to refer to m...
Lord Lyell of Markyate | 716 c21-4GC (Link to this contribution) Yes, indeed. I know and deeply respect the noble Lord’s work for Transparency International. It is n...
Lord Lyell of Markyate | 716 c21GC (Link to this contribution) 1: Clause 1, page 1, line 3, after "if" insert "acting with corrupt intent"
Lord Lyell of Markyate | 716 c31GC (Link to this contribution) I am most grateful to the noble Baroness. It is very difficult to say whether there has been an adeq...
Lord Thomas of Gresford | 716 c30GC (Link to this contribution) Does the noble and learned Lord agree that all those sitting in their barges, waiting to go through ...
Subjects
Business Corruption Advisory services Crown Prosecution Service Attorney General Foreign companies Ministerial powers Prosecutions Payments Public service Overseas companies Serious Fraud Office Revenue and Customs Bribery
Legislation
Bribery Bill (HL) 2009-10
Link
View this Parliamentary proceeding on www.publications.parliament.uk