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Opposition day on Tuesday, 9 March 2010, in the House of Commons, led by Robert Neill. The answering member was Lord Austin of Dudley.

Local Government (Devon, Norfolk and Suffolk)

Local Government (Devon, Norfolk and Suffolk). Fifth opposition day debate (part 2). Closure motion agreed on question. Main question negatived (191 to 275). Amendment agreed on division (267 to 185).

Secondary information

Type
Parliamentary proceeding
Reference
507 c219-70 
Session
2009-10
Department
Department for Communities and Local Government
Procedure
Closure motions
Chamber / Committee
House of Commons chamber
Proceeding contributions
Speaker | 507 c219 (Link to this contribution) I advise the House that Mr. Speaker has selected the amendment in the name of the Prime Minister, an...
Robert Neill | 507 c219-20 (Link to this contribution) Indeed. It is extraordinary behaviour, and we can set out why. We make no bones about tabling a moti...
Show all contributions (148)
Robert Neill | 507 c219 (Link to this contribution) I beg to move,"That this House expresses grave concern at the manner in which unitary restructuring ...
Bob Russell | 507 c220 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Gentleman is making an exceptionally good case against the Government, but so that I can be...
Robert Neill | 507 c220 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Gentleman knows perfectly well that we have said that we should not impose unitary local re...
Lord Swire | 507 c220 (Link to this contribution) Does my hon. Friend think it a complete coincidence that the only two Members who are satisfied with...
Ronnie Campbell | 507 c234 (Link to this contribution) The Minister talks about criteria. Returning to Northumberland, the criterion then was to save £18 m...
Baroness Winterton of Doncaster | 507 c234 (Link to this contribution) Under our proposals, implementing a unitary Exeter and Norwich will cost £400,000 over five years, b...
Lord Swire | 507 c234 (Link to this contribution) In the event of Exeter getting unitary status, will there be any extra money for Devon county counci...
Baroness Winterton of Doncaster | 507 c234 (Link to this contribution) My hon. Friend is so robust, and it is so refreshing to hear his contribution. I thank him for that....
Speaker | 507 c235 (Link to this contribution) Order. Before the hon. Gentleman intervenes, may I say that time is moving on? I understand the need...
Baroness Winterton of Doncaster | 507 c234-5 (Link to this contribution) I will come back to the hon. Gentleman. First, let me highlight that the representations we receive...
Keith Simpson | 507 c235 (Link to this contribution) The case for a Norwich unitary would be strengthened had it effectively been in care for about the p...
Baroness Winterton of Doncaster | 507 c236 (Link to this contribution) I will give way to the hon. Member for South-West Norfolk (Christopher Fraser), because I have not t...
Baroness Winterton of Doncaster | 507 c235-6 (Link to this contribution) I am sorry that the hon. Gentleman has decided to condemn the council in that way. I must say that r...
Baroness Winterton of Doncaster | 507 c232 (Link to this contribution) We believe that the Total Place approach in this case will combine leadership within the authority w...
Robert Neill | 507 c232 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to the Minister for explaining how Total Place came into her reasoning, and she is rig...
Baroness Winterton of Doncaster | 507 c232 (Link to this contribution) That is the judgment made by the hon. Gentleman, but we have made our judgment based on our assessme...
Richard Bacon | 507 c232 (Link to this contribution) The point is that it is possible to achieve the benefits without the costs, the risks and the extra ...
Baroness Winterton of Doncaster | 507 c232 (Link to this contribution) Oh dear, how very disappointing. Total Place is about looking about the amount of public money that ...
Chloe Smith | 507 c232 (Link to this contribution) Will the Minister explain what "Total Place" means? I, for one, am in the dark about this bit of jar...
Norman Lamb | 507 c233 (Link to this contribution) In the Minister's explanation of what is meant by Total Place, she talked about local government wor...
Charles Clarke | 507 c232-3 (Link to this contribution) Can my right hon. Friend confirm that, in the city of Norwich at the moment, public workers work eit...
Baroness Winterton of Doncaster | 507 c233 (Link to this contribution) We considered all the reasons why the criteria, in nearly all the cases, were met, but we also looke...
Baroness Winterton of Doncaster | 507 c233 (Link to this contribution) When the hon. Gentleman's colleagues from Exeter city council came to see me, they presented a good ...
Gary Streeter | 507 c233 (Link to this contribution) The right hon. Lady is coming to the compelling reasons for departing from the criteria in relation ...
Jim Cunningham | 507 c233-4 (Link to this contribution) It is not for me to interfere in counties such as Devon, but, listening to the Opposition, it strike...
Baroness Winterton of Doncaster | 507 c234 (Link to this contribution) My hon. Friend makes a good point. The other point to make is that the Conservative party has never ...
Baroness Winterton of Doncaster | 507 c234 (Link to this contribution) I am going to press on a little, but I will let the hon. Gentleman in later. However, I am aware tha...
Baroness Winterton of Doncaster | 507 c233 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Member for South-West Devon (Mr. Streeter) can decide which ones he would like to consult. ...
Robert Neill | 507 c228-9 (Link to this contribution) That is perfectly true, and having set up a questionable set of rules to start with, the Government ...
Richard Younger-Ross | 507 c228 (Link to this contribution) I thank the hon. Gentleman, who has been very generous in giving way. Is not the problem that the w...
Robert Neill | 507 c228 (Link to this contribution) I apologise to my hon. Friend; I will have to make some more progress. The hon. Member for Teignbrid...
Phyllis Starkey | 507 c226 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Gentleman talked about joint working and seemed to suggest that if councils had joint worki...
Robert Neill | 507 c226-7 (Link to this contribution) No, I was not saying that, and I am surprised that the hon. Lady could possibly interpret my comment...
Linda Gilroy | 507 c227 (Link to this contribution) Does the hon. Gentleman accept that there is very strong cross-party support for unitary status in E...
Robert Neill | 507 c228 (Link to this contribution) I do not accept that contention, taken across the county, at all. The other place's Merits Committee...
Richard Bacon | 507 c232 (Link to this contribution) Is the Minister really saying that the compelling point is that services could be as good as they ar...
Baroness Winterton of Doncaster | 507 c229-30 (Link to this contribution) In January 2007, my right hon. Friend said that she was minded to implement the proposal, but asked ...
Keith Simpson | 507 c230 (Link to this contribution) I want to refer back to Norwich. Norwich had its application for unitary status turned down on its c...
Baroness Winterton of Doncaster | 507 c229 (Link to this contribution) I beg to move an amendment, to leave out from "House" to the end of the Question and add:""recognise...
Nick Harvey | 507 c229 (Link to this contribution) If the then Secretary of State was previously minded to proceed with Exeter's bid, but then sought f...
Baroness Winterton of Doncaster | 507 c230-1 (Link to this contribution) That proposal did not come forward through the boundary committee process. Central to our decisions...
Richard Bacon | 507 c231 (Link to this contribution) I do not understand why, in the case that the Minister is talking about, she appears not to be conce...
Baroness Winterton of Doncaster | 507 c230 (Link to this contribution) I will come to the reasons why, having looked at all the proposals before us, we took the decisions ...
Lord Swire | 507 c230 (Link to this contribution) There was another suggestion, and I wonder what happened to it. Perhaps I do not know solely because...
Robert Neill | 507 c224 (Link to this contribution) My hon. Friend is absolutely right. It is a most depressing and worrying precedent when a senior Cab...
Robert Neill | 507 c224-5 (Link to this contribution) Before I give way, I will make one other point, which highlights the constitutional concerns that ar...
Baroness Browning | 507 c224 (Link to this contribution) The idea that we have Ministers serving who, having been in office for so long, do not understand th...
Robert Neill | 507 c224 (Link to this contribution) One would have thought that some of the Ministers concerned had been in office for long enough to ha...
Lord Swire | 507 c224 (Link to this contribution) Are we not beginning to see a theme in this? The Under-Secretary of State just described the permane...
Robert Neill | 507 c223-4 (Link to this contribution) Against that background of seeking a rational and sound evidence base, I will read out another parag...
Robert Neill | 507 c226 (Link to this contribution) Actually, I have a great deal of respect for the pride that those cities have. They have their lord ...
Robert Neill | 507 c226 (Link to this contribution) I was pretty amazed when I realised that the Minister had taken time out from her doubtless busy sch...
Andrew Smith | 507 c226 (Link to this contribution) Do not the hon. Gentleman's dismissive remarks show that he has a complete absence of understanding ...
Adrian Sanders | 507 c225 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Gentleman makes the point that there have been many developments. Is he up to date with the...
Richard Bacon | 507 c225 (Link to this contribution) It is his legal responsibility and, as my hon. Friend says, his duty to account for public money. We...
Robert Neill | 507 c225 (Link to this contribution) I could not agree more about the lack of understanding. The concerns that exist about the financial ...
Richard Bacon | 507 c225 (Link to this contribution) The permanent secretary is not merely an adviser in this respect—as accounting officer, he is exerci...
Lord Bellingham | 507 c225 (Link to this contribution) Will my hon. Friend tell the House how many requests for directions from accounting officers to Secr...
Robert Neill | 507 c220 (Link to this contribution) I was going to address that point in a moment, but it seems appropriate to do so now, because I obse...
David Drew | 507 c221 (Link to this contribution) Shared service delivery may well be working in those counties, but it certainly is not in Gloucester...
Robert Neill | 507 c221 (Link to this contribution) We have made it quite clear that we oppose imposed unitary local government, and I restate that. We ...
Speaker | 507 c221 (Link to this contribution) Order. We ought to stick to Devon, Norfolk and Suffolk.
Norman Lamb | 507 c221 (Link to this contribution) Does the hon. Gentleman share my horror at the extraordinary amount of public money that has been co...
Robert Neill | 507 c221 (Link to this contribution) I am very happy to follow your strictures, Mr. Deputy Speaker. I shall review what has happened sin...
Robert Neill | 507 c221-2 (Link to this contribution) I could not agree more. It is a fairly regrettable and bizarre state of affairs, and that brings me ...
Robert Neill | 507 c222 (Link to this contribution) Before I come to that development, I shall let the hon. Gentleman come in.
Robert Neill | 507 c222-3 (Link to this contribution) There are occasions when I find myself in agreement with the hon. Gentleman, and he speaks from expe...
Ronnie Campbell | 507 c222 (Link to this contribution) I do not want to start off on bad terms, but I must say that Northumberland went through the same pr...
Robert Neill | 507 c223 (Link to this contribution) No, but I do expect a rational Minister to have a sound base of evidence for the decision that they ...
Lord Austin of Dudley | 507 c223 (Link to this contribution) Is it not the case that, as a former Prime Minister once said, advisers advise but Ministers decide?...
Robert Neill | 507 c223 (Link to this contribution) I am happy to give way to the hon. Gentleman; perhaps he is going to tell me what the costs and bene...
Chloe Smith | 507 c247 (Link to this contribution) The right hon. Gentleman may be aware that the county council is not doing as he has just suggested....
Charles Clarke | 507 c247-8 (Link to this contribution) I beg your pardon. The Tory county council has decided to ask the director of planning, Mike Jackson...
Charles Clarke | 507 c246 (Link to this contribution) For three reasons. First, as I said, it will be a new council—that is important—all-out elected in 2...
Robert Neill | 507 c247 (Link to this contribution) In endeavouring to be helpful, I did not want to inadvertently mislead the right hon. Gentleman. I m...
Charles Clarke | 507 c247 (Link to this contribution) I am glad the hon. Gentleman has made that clear. I thought that with great subtlety he had ducked t...
Keith Simpson | 507 c244-5 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Lady is absolutely correct. If the change goes ahead, certainly in Norwich—I shall not com...
Charles Clarke | 507 c245-6 (Link to this contribution) I am delighted that this debate is taking place. First of all, and following the remarks of the Chai...
Richard Bacon | 507 c246 (Link to this contribution) The Audit Commission has described Norwich county council's financial management as not fit for purp...
Norman Lamb | 507 c252-3 (Link to this contribution) One does what one believes in. I have a strongly held view that the decision is wrong and that it is...
Charles Clarke | 507 c252 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Gentleman has said that he will use his powers to block the proposal in whatever way he can...
Phyllis Starkey | 507 c250-1 (Link to this contribution) Does my hon. Friend accept that the point that Opposition Members have made both to him and to my ri...
Anthony D Wright | 507 c251 (Link to this contribution) My hon. Friend makes a valuable point about value for money. I do not believe that the situation tha...
Christopher Fraser | 507 c250 (Link to this contribution) How does the hon. Gentleman justify the extra cost to the taxpayer of a new unitary status for Norwi...
Anthony D Wright | 507 c250 (Link to this contribution) I do not think that the rest of the county has put its views forward on that, and the hon. Gentleman...
Anthony D Wright | 507 c250 (Link to this contribution) I am 100 per cent. behind unitary authorities. Indeed, I am envious of the position that Norwich fin...
Charles Clarke | 507 c248 (Link to this contribution) I put a simple challenge to the Opposition parties. Let us add up the votes cast on general election...
Lord Bellingham | 507 c248-9 (Link to this contribution) It is always a pleasure to follow the right hon. Member for Norwich, South (Mr. Clarke), but as he r...
Chloe Smith | 507 c259 (Link to this contribution) I thank my hon. Friend for that. The city council is on top of its ability to leave bins full and, a...
Chloe Smith | 507 c259-60 (Link to this contribution) No, I am afraid not, as I want to make some progress. The Audit Commission's report after that scan...
Keith Simpson | 507 c253 (Link to this contribution) As the Liberal health spokesman, the hon. Gentleman will know that every report resulting from the b...
Norman Lamb | 507 c253 (Link to this contribution) I absolutely agree with the hon. Gentleman. We must ensure that children's services are robust, and ...
Gary Streeter | 507 c253-5 (Link to this contribution) I wish to home in on the two compelling reasons about which we have heard so much in the debate on t...
Lord Swire | 507 c255-7 (Link to this contribution) I think that I find myself in a unique position in the House, in that at the forthcoming election I ...
Chloe Smith | 507 c257-9 (Link to this contribution) My constituency straddles the boundary of the proposed new Norwich unitary authority and the remaind...
Richard Bacon | 507 c259 (Link to this contribution) They cannot even empty the bins!
Barbara Follett | 507 c261-2 (Link to this contribution) This has been a lively and occasionally passionate debate, with feelings running high in all parts o...
Lord McLoughlin | 507 c262-3 (Link to this contribution) claimed to move the closure (Standing Order No. 36). Question put forthwith, That the Question be n...
Justine Greening | 507 c260-1 (Link to this contribution) As we have heard, the history of changing the boundaries and structures of local authorities is long...
Baroness Winterton of Doncaster | 507 c236 (Link to this contribution) That is exactly the point that I have spent about the past 20 minutes on. We have taken our decision...
Christopher Fraser | 507 c236 (Link to this contribution) I am listening carefully to what the Minister is saying, but if I have got what she has just said ri...
Caroline Spelman | 507 c236 (Link to this contribution) I appreciate the Minister giving way, but could she explain why the Government have chosen to pilot ...
Adrian Sanders | 507 c238 (Link to this contribution) The process was flawed right from the beginning. Four out of every 10 homes in the county of Devonsh...
Richard Younger-Ross | 507 c237 (Link to this contribution) The right hon. Lady talks about the cheapest option, but that will lead to pressure on council budge...
Baroness Winterton of Doncaster | 507 c236-7 (Link to this contribution) I do not understand the point of that intervention. If the hon. Lady is saying that there are benefi...
Dan Rogerson | 507 c237-8 (Link to this contribution) We find ourselves involved in the second instalment of a three-round discussion on these proposals. ...
Baroness Winterton of Doncaster | 507 c237 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Gentleman might like to discuss this with his colleagues on Exeter city council who are, as...
Charles Clarke | 507 c239 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Gentleman talks about attitudes to this issue and the idea of having a convention, so does ...
Dan Rogerson | 507 c238-9 (Link to this contribution) That reinforces a point made in an earlier intervention, and I accept that there are many factors th...
Richard Younger-Ross | 507 c238 (Link to this contribution) If we look at Torbay or Devon, and officers working for one or the other, we see that they can work ...
Dan Rogerson | 507 c238 (Link to this contribution) My hon. Friend is absolutely right. This is the problem with the process. The hon. Member for Bromle...
Richard Bacon | 507 c240 (Link to this contribution) We should have warned the hon. Gentleman before that although the right hon. Member for Norwich, Sou...
Dan Rogerson | 507 c239-40 (Link to this contribution) I thank my hon. Friend for that contribution. Looking at Devon, for example, it is important to poin...
Norman Lamb | 507 c239 (Link to this contribution) My hon. Friend's answer to the right hon. Member for Norwich, South (Mr. Clarke) was perfect. The re...
Dan Rogerson | 507 c240 (Link to this contribution) As always, my hon. Friend has made a good point. We are having this debate against the background of...
Julia Goldsworthy | 507 c240 (Link to this contribution) As my hon. Friend has said, the experience of the process has been difficult for all parties. I well...
Norman Lamb | 507 c240 (Link to this contribution) I must respond to the outrageous goading by the hon. Member for South Norfolk (Mr. Bacon), whom I wo...
Lord Swire | 507 c241 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Gentleman mentioned division within parties. He will know that the Labour leader of Devon c...
Dan Rogerson | 507 c241 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Gentleman seeks to build on a point made by the hon. Member for Bromley and Chislehurst (Ro...
Dan Rogerson | 507 c241 (Link to this contribution) Absolutely. It is the worst of all worlds. The Government are trying to gerrymander in a way that do...
Robert Neill | 507 c241-2 (Link to this contribution) The point that I was making was that the academic research by Professors Chisholm and Leach demonstr...
Dan Rogerson | 507 c241 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Gentleman was dangerously close to saying that they were disunited on every other issue. We...
Christopher Fraser | 507 c241 (Link to this contribution) Does the hon. Gentleman accept that the Conservatives in Norfolk are united on one issue—the deliver...
Lord Swire | 507 c243-4 (Link to this contribution) I think that we know slightly better than the Chairman of the Select Committee what our councillors ...
Phyllis Starkey | 507 c242-3 (Link to this contribution) I note, Madam Deputy Speaker, that Conservative Members appear to be challenging your ruling in call...
Speaker | 507 c242 (Link to this contribution) Order. May I remind hon. and right hon. Members that Mr. Speaker has imposed an eight-minute limit o...
Dan Rogerson | 507 c242 (Link to this contribution) That clarification is helpful—not that that dimension would have encouraged my hon. and right hon. F...
Julia Goldsworthy | 507 c244 (Link to this contribution) Does the hon. Gentleman agree that parish councils, which are an important part of local democracy a...
Keith Simpson | 507 c244 (Link to this contribution) I want to speak on behalf of my constituents in my constituency, which wraps around the northern out...
Phyllis Starkey | 507 c244 (Link to this contribution) I am sure that the hon. Gentleman can tell me, but I am talking about Exeter. He is talking about a ...
Speaker | 507 c219 (Link to this contribution) I advise the House that Mr. Speaker has selected the amendment in the name of the Prime Minister, an...
Robert Neill | 507 c225 (Link to this contribution) My hon. Friend has asked a question to which I do not readily have the answer. However, I am told th...
Dan Rogerson | 507 c239 (Link to this contribution) I think that the hon. Member for South-West Norfolk (Christopher Fraser) is making a point from the ...
Dan Rogerson | 507 c240-1 (Link to this contribution) My hon. Friend has confirmed what I said earlier. All the parties have understandably found themselv...
Baroness Winterton of Doncaster | 507 c233 (Link to this contribution) My right hon. Friend makes an important point. That is exactly the approach that we need to take to ...
Baroness Winterton of Doncaster | 507 c231 (Link to this contribution) I am just coming to an explanation of that. We looked at the wider consideration of the merits of ea...
Dan Rogerson | 507 c240 (Link to this contribution) If the hon. Gentleman had listened to what I said earlier, he might not have risked returning to the...
Charles Clarke | 507 c221 (Link to this contribution) My intervention follows the hon. Gentleman's answer to the hon. Member for Colchester (Bob Russell)....
Norman Lamb | 507 c251-2 (Link to this contribution) The Minister for Regional Economic Development and Co-ordination said that the Secretary of State ha...
Subjects
Cost effectiveness Devon Ipswich Exeter Local government Local government finance Local government services Norfolk Norwich Standards Reorganisation Unitary councils Suffolk
Link
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