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Debate on bill on Monday, 25 October 2010, in the House of Lords.

Terrorist Asset-Freezing etc. Bill [HL]

Terrorist Asset-Freezing etc. Bill (HL). Lords report stage debate.

Secondary information

Type
Parliamentary proceeding
Reference
721 c1035-92 
Session
2010-12
Department
Treasury
Legislative stage
Report stage
Chamber / Committee
House of Lords chamber
Related items
Proceeding contributions
Lord Lloyd of Berwick | 721 c1038 (Link to this contribution) I will not take up the noble Lord’s time further, but I shall obviously need to deal with that matte...
Lord Lloyd of Berwick | 721 c1038 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, before the noble Lord sits down, I hope that he will deal with that point a little more fu...
Show all contributions (104)
Lord Bach | 721 c1038 (Link to this contribution) I have to admit that I do not know the answer to the noble and learned Lord’s question. However, I a...
Lord Lloyd of Berwick | 721 c1035-7 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I intend to address the amendments that relate to the final order, and I therefore wish to...
Lord Lloyd of Berwick | 721 c1035 (Link to this contribution) 1: Clause 2, page 2, line 3, at beginning insert ““Subject to section (Treasury’s power to make fina...
Lord Sassoon | 721 c1042 (Link to this contribution) Not being a lawyer, I was trying to give a clear statement of what effect Clause 1 has in relation t...
Lord Sassoon | 721 c1041-2 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, the interpretation of UNSCR 1373 can be construed partly on a recommendation of the resolu...
Lord Lloyd of Berwick | 721 c1041 (Link to this contribution) Does the noble Lord accept that reasonable belief goes beyond what Resolution 1373 requires? That is...
Lord Sassoon | 721 c1042 (Link to this contribution) Under Clause 1, people anywhere in the world can be designated. To repeat myself again, the prohibit...
Lord Lloyd of Berwick | 721 c1042 (Link to this contribution) Is the Minister saying, in effect, that Clause 1 has extra-territorial effect? If so, what is his au...
Lord Elystan-Morgan | 721 c1038-9 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I support the arguments and the amendment tabled by my noble and learned friend Lord Lloyd...
Lord Mackay of Clashfern | 721 c1040 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I am prompted to rise by the noble Lord, Lord Judd. The principle to which he refers is di...
Lord Davies of Stamford | 721 c1042 (Link to this contribution) I thank the noble Lord for giving way. He may not be a lawyer, but he is a Minister. He has come bef...
Lord Sassoon | 721 c1043 (Link to this contribution) I am trying to reduce this to what Clause 1 actually does. I do not believe that saying whether it i...
Lord Davies of Stamford | 721 c1043 (Link to this contribution) Does Clause 1 have extra-territorial jurisdiction encapsulated within it, or does it not have extra-...
Lord Sassoon | 721 c1043 (Link to this contribution) No, my Lords, that is not strictly what I said. Clause 1 can bite on assets that are here that might...
Lord Davies of Stamford | 721 c1043 (Link to this contribution) So, to be clear, the clause can bite on persons or assets that are not connected with the United Kin...
Lord Sassoon | 721 c1043 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, let me try to say it again. Clause 1 bites on assets that are here—that is, territorial as...
Lord Davies of Stamford | 721 c1043 (Link to this contribution) We all know what ““territorial”” means. It means persons who are in this country or visiting this co...
Lord Sassoon | 721 c1042 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I am trying to get to the substance of what we are seeking to achieve here, which is that ...
Lord Stoddart of Swindon | 721 c1043-4 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, on this important amendment, we have heard from the Minister that because he is a layman, ...
Lord Sassoon | 721 c1044 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I am grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Davies of Oldham. I hope that the majority of us are...
Lord Lloyd of Berwick | 721 c1044 (Link to this contribution) I have not addressed those amendments yet. I believe they have been degrouped and appear in the next...
Lord Sassoon | 721 c1044-5 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, the last grouping I have seen from the Printed Paper Office suggested that everything was ...
Lord Skelmersdale | 721 c1045 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, it would make life a lot clearer for me if the Minister could say whether anything in Reso...
Lord Sassoon | 721 c1045 (Link to this contribution) I am not aware of anything in the resolution that prevents legislation going further. The Bill does ...
Lord Lloyd of Berwick | 721 c1045-6 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, the Minister has not fully dealt with the point that what is now proposed goes well beyond...
Lord Sassoon | 721 c1048 (Link to this contribution) 2: Clause 2, page 2, line 14, leave out ““““terrorist activity”” means”” and insert ““involvement in...
Lord Davies of Oldham | 721 c1043 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, at the Report stage of a Bill, the Minister is not here to be cross-examined in this way. ...
Lord Sassoon | 721 c1049-50 (Link to this contribution) 8: Clause 5, page 3, line 24, leave out ““such steps as they consider appropriate”” and insert ““rea...
Lord Lloyd of Berwick | 721 c1050 (Link to this contribution) 9: Clause 6, page 3, line 28, after ““make”” insert ““an application to the High Court or, in Scotla...
Lord Sassoon | 721 c1049 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, these amendments relate to the requirement on the Treasury, where an interim or final desi...
Lord Pannick | 721 c1049 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, these amendments meet the concerns that I expressed in Committee. I am grateful to the Min...
Lord Lester of Herne Hill | 721 c1052 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, perhaps I may briefly echo my support for the noble and learned Lord’s amendment.
Lord Lloyd of Berwick | 721 c1050-1 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, the purpose of the amendment is to provide for a High Court judge to make the interim desi...
Lord Sassoon | 721 c1051-2 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, Amendments 9 and 11 require the Treasury to apply to the court to make an interim designat...
Baroness Hamwee | 721 c1048-9 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I am extremely grateful to the Minister for this amendment. The Bill creates a number of o...
Lord Sassoon | 721 c1049 (Link to this contribution) 7: Clause 4, page 3, line 17, leave out ““such steps as they consider appropriate”” and insert ““rea...
Lord Sassoon | 721 c1048 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, the Government’s intention behind this amendment is to clarify that the words ““involved i...
Lord Judd | 721 c1089-92 (Link to this contribution) I thank the noble Lord for that full reply and appreciate the tone in which it was given. I also tha...
Lord Sassoon | 721 c1056-8 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I will first address Amendments 12 to 14, which concern making a subsequent interim design...
Lord Davies of Oldham | 721 c1054-6 (Link to this contribution) Amendment 17 stands in my name and that of my noble friend Lord Bach on behalf of the Official Oppos...
Lord Pannick | 721 c1058-9 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, in relation to Amendment 10, the Minister emphasises that an interim designation order may...
Lord Sassoon | 721 c1059 (Link to this contribution) 14: Clause 6, page 4, line 2, after ““same”” insert ““, or substantially the same,”” Amendment 14 a...
Lord Sassoon | 721 c1059 (Link to this contribution) 16: Clause 8, page 4, line 31, leave out ““such steps as they consider appropriate”” and insert ““re...
Baroness Hamwee | 721 c1059 (Link to this contribution) 19: Clause 17, page 8, line 14, at end insert— ““(4A) An application for a licence for the purposes ...
Baroness Hamwee | 721 c1059-60 (Link to this contribution) I shall speak also to Amendments 20, 20A and 22. They all concern the licensing regime and I am keen...
Lord Pannick | 721 c1060 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I support the amendments, in particular Amendment 20A. The Treasury has no interest whatev...
Lord Lester of Herne Hill | 721 c1054 (Link to this contribution) I agree with the noble Lord, Lord Pannick, and with my noble friend. I am speaking partly as a membe...
Lord Lloyd of Berwick | 721 c1053 (Link to this contribution) Did he not say that? He said that he differentiated this measure from control orders on the ground t...
Lord Mackay of Clashfern | 721 c1053 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I would like to be sure that I understand. The noble and learned Lord’s Amendments 9 and 1...
Lord Lloyd of Berwick | 721 c1052 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, the Minister gave three reasons why he could not accept the amendment, the first of which ...
Lord Pannick | 721 c1053-4 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, this amendment addresses the purpose of the interim designation. Noble Lords will be well ...
Baroness Hamwee | 721 c1054 (Link to this contribution) I have tabled Amendment 12 in this group. First, with regard to Amendment 10, I hope we will not hea...
Lord Lloyd of Berwick | 721 c1053 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I entirely agree with the noble and learned Lord. That is the normal way in which it is do...
Lord Pannick | 721 c1053 (Link to this contribution) 10: Clause 6, page 3, line 38, at end insert ““, and ( ) they consider that it is necessary to act a...
Lord Lester of Herne Hill | 721 c1077 (Link to this contribution) I apologise for interrupting the noble Lord, but does he not agree that his valiant attempt to disti...
Lord Wallace of Tankerness | 721 c1077-9 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I can almost hear the noble Lord advancing that case. The Government’s position is simply ...
Lord Pannick | 721 c1079-80 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I am grateful to noble Lords who have spoken in the debate for the support that they have ...
Lord Judd | 721 c1080 (Link to this contribution) 23A: Clause 31, page 15, line 29, at end insert— ““( ) A person may not be appointed under subsectio...
Lord Judd | 721 c1080-1 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I shall speak also to Amendments 23B, 23C, 23D, 23E and 23F. This afternoon, there have be...
Lord Lester of Herne Hill | 721 c1081-3 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I have added my name to the noble Lord’s amendment because I am a member of the Joint Comm...
Lord Davies of Oldham | 721 c1086-7 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I rise briefly to congratulate my noble friend on the way in which he moved this serious a...
Lord Carlile of Berriew | 721 c1083-6 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I fear that it would be negligent if I did not take a little bit of the House’s time to co...
Lord Davies of Oldham | 721 c1087 (Link to this contribution) I am delighted to hear that. I apologise for my slight misinterpretation of the noble Lord’s advocac...
Lord Lester of Herne Hill | 721 c1087 (Link to this contribution) I do not think that the amendment to which I put my name does so. I was simply seeking to say that i...
Lord Pannick | 721 c1072 (Link to this contribution) 23: Clause 28, page 14, line 2, at end insert— ““(5) In section 67(3) of the Counter-Terrorism Act 2...
Lord Pannick | 721 c1072-3 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, Amendments 23 and 24 are designed to give statutory effect, in the asset-freezing context,...
Lord Wallace of Tankerness | 721 c1071 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, my concern is that it would not necessarily provide the degree of certainty which my noble...
Lord Pannick | 721 c1071-2 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to the Minister. I am also very grateful to the noble and learned Lord, Lord Mackay of...
Lord Bach | 721 c1074-5 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I was very well assisted by the report that the committee brought out, and by the paragrap...
Lord Carlile of Berriew | 721 c1074 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I join in asking my noble friend to consider very carefully the proposal put forward by th...
Lord Mackay of Clashfern | 721 c1074 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, it appears reasonably plain that the ratio of the decision of this House in the case refer...
Lord Lester of Herne Hill | 721 c1073-4 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I have put my name to the amendment and I wish to speak briefly in support of it. I shall ...
Lord Wallace of Tankerness | 721 c1075-7 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, as the noble Lord, Lord Bach, indicated, this has been a short but fundamentally important...
Baroness Hamwee | 721 c1064-5 (Link to this contribution) 20B: Clause 22, page 11, line 13, at end insert— ““(3) A person must comply with a request under thi...
Baroness Hamwee | 721 c1065 (Link to this contribution) This was another matter that I raised in Committee, and I have been grateful for the opportunity to ...
Lord Wallace of Tankerness | 721 c1065-6 (Link to this contribution) Again, my Lords, I am grateful to my noble friend for raising this point, which we dealt with in Com...
Baroness Hamwee | 721 c1066 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, with reference to where the onus lies, the Minister’s reply is particularly helpful; I am ...
Lord Wallace of Tankerness | 721 c1068-70 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, in responding to an amendment moved by the noble Lord, Lord Pannick, I feel somewhat guilt...
Lord Bach | 721 c1068 (Link to this contribution) Briefly, I can say only to the noble and learned Minister: plus ça change. Here I am, supporting in ...
Lord Pannick | 721 c1066 (Link to this contribution) 21: Clause 26, page 13, line 3, at end insert ““including the award of damages if and to the extent ...
Lord Mackay of Clashfern | 721 c1068 (Link to this contribution) Noble Lords can hardly expect me to remain silent while that remark is made. I support the amendment...
Lord Lester of Herne Hill | 721 c1067-8 (Link to this contribution) I spent much time on Bills seeking to persuade the previous Administration that the statute book sho...
Lord Pannick | 721 c1062 (Link to this contribution) If I understood him correctly, the Minister mentioned legal aid for the designated person and allowi...
Lord Wallace of Tankerness | 721 c1062 (Link to this contribution) I said that in addition to a general licence which already exists with regard to the Legal Services ...
Lord Wallace of Tankerness | 721 c1060-2 (Link to this contribution) I thank my noble friend Lady Hamwee for dealing with licensing, which was an important part of our d...
Baroness Hamwee | 721 c1064 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to my noble and learned friend. Although I remain a little uneasy—that is not his faul...
Lord Wallace of Tankerness | 721 c1064 (Link to this contribution) My noble friend is right to say that there are other articles. The right to a fair trial is the obvi...
Baroness Hamwee | 721 c1064 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, with that last comment, my noble and learned friend anticipates my saying that I would not...
Lord Wallace of Tankerness | 721 c1063-4 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, as my noble friend is aware, provisions within the Bill allow for a decision not to issue ...
Lord Lester of Herne Hill | 721 c1063 (Link to this contribution) Will my noble and learned friend tell the House what legal remedy there would be if, in spite of goo...
Lord Wallace of Tankerness | 721 c1063 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, in principle, it would be possible to allow people to spend their own funds on legal expen...
Lord Pannick | 721 c1062-3 (Link to this contribution) I am sorry to test the Minister's patience, but if I understand him—please correct me if I am wrong—...
Lord Bach | 721 c1037-8 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, to my surprise, I shall be speaking early in these proceedings but I enter the fray at a r...
Lord Sassoon | 721 c1040-1 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, if noble Lords will permit me, I will speak to this entire group of amendments, although t...
Lord Sassoon | 721 c1059 (Link to this contribution) 18: Clause 9, page 5, line 3, leave out ““such steps as they consider appropriate”” and insert ““rea...
Lord Pannick | 721 c1066-7 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, this amendment concerns the award of damages where a person wins their appeal against a de...
Lord Carlile of Berriew | 721 c1042 (Link to this contribution) Perhaps I may tempt the Minister into a more direct answer to the question posed by the noble and le...
Lord Judd | 721 c1039-40 (Link to this contribution) I listened very carefully to what my noble friend said in his forthright argument. I have always tho...
Lord Sassoon | 721 c1087-9 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, it has been an interesting discussion. I am grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Judd, for rec...
Lord Lester of Herne Hill | 721 c1070 (Link to this contribution) I am very grateful to the Minister. However, I would still like him to explain the practical disadva...
Subjects
Disclosure of information Appeals Human rights Jurisdiction Financial services Financial institutions International cooperation Money laundering Terrorism Treasury Sequestration of assets Freezing of assets
Legislation
Terrorist Asset-freezing etc Bill (HL) 2010-12
Link
View this Parliamentary proceeding on www.publications.parliament.uk