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Debate on bill and Committee proceeding on Monday, 29 November 2010, in the House of Lords.

Budget Responsibility and National Audit Bill [HL]

Budget Responsibility and National Audit Bill (HL). Lords committee stage first day. Clause 1 (Charter for Budget Responsibility) agreed to. Clause 2 (Annual Budget Documents) under consideration. Grand Committee held in the Moses Room.

Secondary information

Type
Parliamentary proceeding
Reference
722 c83-116GC 
Session
2010-12
Department
Treasury
Legislative stage
Committee stage
Chamber / Committee
House of Lords Grand Committee
Related items
Proceeding contributions
Lord Sassoon | 722 c98GC (Link to this contribution) I am only a new boy to this process, but I cannot believe that the noble Lord, Lord Peston, is begin...
Baroness Noakes | 722 c97GC (Link to this contribution) If the noble Lord does not ask for the amendment to be withdrawn, it will be agreed.
Show all contributions (96)
Lord Barnett | 722 c101GC (Link to this contribution) 2: Clause 1, page 1, line 7, at end insert— ““( ) the objectives for economic policy of Her Majesty’...
Lord Eatwell | 722 c104-5GC (Link to this contribution) I have a couple of comments to make on the amendments. With respect to the engagement of my noble fr...
Lord Higgins | 722 c109GC (Link to this contribution) My Lords, the Minister is absolutely right that Amendment 38 is not necessary, but his reply was oth...
Lord Barnett | 722 c112GC (Link to this contribution) I do not agree with the noble Lord, Lord Higgins, on Amendment 21 because I do not see why the Treas...
Lord Peston | 722 c84GC (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I shall speak specifically to the amendment in the name of my noble friend and myself, but...
Lord Myners | 722 c96GC (Link to this contribution) That is why the Chancellor of the Exchequer and other Ministers must be very careful when they prese...
Lord Higgins | 722 c95-6GC (Link to this contribution) I shall try to speed up the proceedings in the light of what the noble Lord, Lord Barnett, has said....
Lord Eatwell | 722 c83GC (Link to this contribution) 1: Clause 1, page 1, line 5, after ““fiscal”” insert ““and economic””
Baroness Pitkeathley | 722 c83GC (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I remind Members of the Committee that, as usual, if there is a Division in the Chamber wh...
Lord Higgins | 722 c84GC (Link to this contribution) I am having some difficulty in tracking down the reference to intergenerational transfers. Am I righ...
Lord Eatwell | 722 c83-4GC (Link to this contribution) My Lords, before we start our discussion of the Bill, let me say how grateful I am to the Government...
Lord Eatwell | 722 c84GC (Link to this contribution) It is in the charter, which is referred to in Clause 1, and I shall attempt to find it for the noble...
Lord Oakeshott of Seagrove Bay | 722 c85GC (Link to this contribution) My Lords, like the noble Lord, Lord Eatwell, I was rather struck by the word ““intergenerational”” i...
Lord Eatwell | 722 c86GC (Link to this contribution) I introduced the charter into this in the sense that Clause 1 refers to the charter for budget respo...
Lord Newby | 722 c86GC (Link to this contribution) Just as a point of clarification for the noble Lord, Lord Eatwell, Clause 1(7) states: "““The Charte...
Lord Sassoon | 722 c86-7GC (Link to this contribution) I shall explain the way I see it and deal with the things that may be relevant this afternoon. We ar...
Lord Myners | 722 c85GC (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I support my noble friend Lord Eatwell. I think that I need do no more than cite our debat...
Lord Higgins | 722 c85GC (Link to this contribution) My Lords, am I wrong in thinking that the amendment refers to line 6 and not line 5 of the Bill? Be ...
Lord Sassoon | 722 c86GC (Link to this contribution) My Lords, since one or two noble Lords have joined us since the beginning of our sitting, perhaps I ...
Lord Peston | 722 c86GC (Link to this contribution) I may implicitly be criticising my noble friend Lord Eatwell in saying that I was not under the impr...
Lord Myners | 722 c88GC (Link to this contribution) Surely the ““therefore”” does not follow. Simply because the code did not include economic policy, i...
Lord Sassoon | 722 c89-90GC (Link to this contribution) My Lords, we could add an awful lot of not directly relevant things into the charter and make a docu...
Lord Eatwell | 722 c87GC (Link to this contribution) That was the point that I was trying to make in a speech that I made in the House the other day. If ...
Lord Sassoon | 722 c87-8GC (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Eatwell, for his explanation of how intergenerational transfer...
Lord Higgins | 722 c90-1GC (Link to this contribution) Before my noble friend replies to that, perhaps I may delay the Committee for a moment or two more. ...
Lord Sassoon | 722 c91GC (Link to this contribution) My Lords, at the risk of repeating myself, the Government’s broader economic policy objective is cle...
Lord Sassoon | 722 c90GC (Link to this contribution) I was not meaning to be at all discourteous to my noble friend. I thought that I had explained that ...
Lord Oakeshott of Seagrove Bay | 722 c90GC (Link to this contribution) I am glad that we are starting to get the matter addressed, but this is Committee stage and it is no...
Lord Oakeshott of Seagrove Bay | 722 c90GC (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I listened at considerable length to the Minister reading out his brief in response to the...
Lord Peston | 722 c97GC (Link to this contribution) It is not the formalities that I am talking about but the style.
Lord Peston | 722 c97GC (Link to this contribution) There is no problem on the formalities. I am someone who has become a great advocate of Grand Commit...
Lord Sassoon | 722 c100GC (Link to this contribution) We are possibly getting this a little confused. Of course, in order to make an economic forecast, it...
Lord Eatwell | 722 c100GC (Link to this contribution) Perhaps I could help the Minister. Clause 6(1)(a) requires the charter for budget responsibility to ...
Lord Sassoon | 722 c99GC (Link to this contribution) We have gone into territory in this discussion that is well beyond the consistency of the Bill. Cons...
Lord Eatwell | 722 c98-9GC (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I realise that this is the first time that the Minister has had to face a Grand Committee ...
Lord Sassoon | 722 c98GC (Link to this contribution) We should not prolong this for too long—although I am happy to. If I feel, having heard the argument...
Lord Peston | 722 c98GC (Link to this contribution) The noble Lord misses my point, which is to ask whether this is how he is going to treat all the ame...
Lord Barnett | 722 c101GC (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I want to stop my noble friend from getting too angry. Like the noble Lord, I have a littl...
Lord Higgins | 722 c101GC (Link to this contribution) 5: Clause 1, page 2, line 4, at end insert ““and the House of Lords””
Lord Higgins | 722 c101GC (Link to this contribution) This amendment is grouped with Amendments 6, 8 and 35, which are rather more sophisticated than my a...
Lord Eatwell | 722 c100GC (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I am grateful to the noble Lord but there is a consistency point here, because the issue o...
Lord Myners | 722 c102-3GC (Link to this contribution) My Lords, we all now wait with bated breath to see whether the word ““resist”” appears on the Minist...
Lord Newby | 722 c102GC (Link to this contribution) I rise to support the noble Lord, Lord Barnett, and possibly to bring to the Minister’s attention th...
Lord Barnett | 722 c101-2GC (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I hope this group will last only a very few minutes and that the Minister will accept the ...
Lord Turnbull | 722 c102GC (Link to this contribution) I shall take issue with the noble Baroness, Lady Noakes. I think there is a distinction between the ...
Baroness Noakes | 722 c102GC (Link to this contribution) My Lords, if this document is really about fiscal policy and the fiscal mandate only, it is entirely...
Lord Barnett | 722 c103GC (Link to this contribution) When I was Chief Secretary to the Treasury, I could not care at all what the House of Lords was doin...
Lord Peston | 722 c103-4GC (Link to this contribution) My Lords, perhaps I could take us back into the history of some of this. When what became the Bank o...
Lord Brooke of Sutton Mandeville | 722 c105GC (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I apologise to the Committee if I have acted improperly by rising after the noble Lord, Lo...
Lord Sassoon | 722 c105GC (Link to this contribution) Oh dear! Where do I start? I should say—because I genuinely mean it—that it is important to have ful...
Lord Oakeshott of Seagrove Bay | 722 c104GC (Link to this contribution) I rise briefly strongly to support the amendment. The noble Lord, Lord Sassoon, might be pleased to ...
Lord Peston | 722 c106GC (Link to this contribution) Is the noble Lord actually saying that the definitive view of the Clerk of the Parliaments is mistak...
Lord Sassoon | 722 c106GC (Link to this contribution) I had not intended to go down this interesting byway, but notwithstanding the singlehanded contribut...
Lord Oakeshott of Seagrove Bay | 722 c106GC (Link to this contribution) It is not just under this Government that that has been happening; it is a problem with the Treasury...
Lord Myners | 722 c106GC (Link to this contribution) I shall bear that in mind. If the Minister is struggling to keep up with his work, I will obviously ...
Lord Sassoon | 722 c106-7GC (Link to this contribution) I have made it completely clear that I think it is absolutely appropriate and important that this Ho...
Lord Turnbull | 722 c107GC (Link to this contribution) Perhaps I may suggest a way through this. One of the problems is that the action in subsection (7) c...
Baroness Noakes | 722 c107GC (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I do not like to be in disagreement with the noble Lord, Lord Turnbull, as I seem to be on...
Lord Sassoon | 722 c108-9GC (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to my noble friend. Clearly, whether it is comments from the EAC or the comments that ...
Lord Peston | 722 c109GC (Link to this contribution) On Amendment 35, is the Minister saying that he is absolutely confident that, within our normal arra...
Lord Sassoon | 722 c109GC (Link to this contribution) My clear understanding is that the Standing Orders absolutely give all the necessary authority to co...
Lord Higgins | 722 c110GC (Link to this contribution) In moving the amendment, I think that it would be helpful to discuss Amendments 21, 33 and 38. I sha...
Lord Higgins | 722 c109GC (Link to this contribution) 7: Clause 2, page 2, line 14, at end insert— ““( ) The Treasury shall not make economic forecasts co...
Lord Turnbull | 722 c110-1GC (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I speak almost in direct contradiction to the noble Lord, Lord Higgins. The current draft ...
Lord Sassoon | 722 c114GC (Link to this contribution) I would not express it in quite those terms. It is absolutely the intention and the expectation that...
Lord Eatwell | 722 c113GC (Link to this contribution) Will the Minister clarify this for me? Is he saying that while the Government intend to accept the O...
Lord Sassoon | 722 c113GC (Link to this contribution) Let me start with the easy end of this. Some important points were raised, not least the crucial poi...
Lord Eatwell | 722 c112-3GC (Link to this contribution) The amendments raise in different ways an important issue in relation to the draft charter. The nobl...
Lord Higgins | 722 c111-2GC (Link to this contribution) Perhaps I may intervene for a moment before the Minister replies. Amendment 21 suggests that there s...
Baroness Noakes | 722 c111GC (Link to this contribution) I do not quite agree with my noble friend Lord Higgins on this. In particular, the prohibition in Am...
Lord Newby | 722 c111GC (Link to this contribution) I almost agree with the noble Lord, Lord Turnbull, but it would strike me as slightly odd if at this...
Lord Eatwell | 722 c114GC (Link to this contribution) Just to clarify, the point that I was trying to make was that the charter states that the OBR plays ...
Lord Sassoon | 722 c114-5GC (Link to this contribution) I am grateful that we have got that clearer. I should move on briefly to the question of whether it ...
Lord Higgins | 722 c115-6GC (Link to this contribution) My Lords, it seems to be still absolutely clear that having monetary policy based on one lot of fore...
Lord De Mauley | 722 c116GC (Link to this contribution) My Lords, this may be a convenient moment for the Committee to adjourn until Wednesday at 3.45 pm.
Lord Sassoon | 722 c97GC (Link to this contribution) Yes, I am rejecting it. I am nervous of getting another lecture of the formalities of how we operate...
Lord Sassoon | 722 c97GC (Link to this contribution) First, Robert Chote and the Office for Budget Responsibility presented their own report this morning...
Lord Higgins | 722 c97GC (Link to this contribution) Am I right in thinking that the Minister rejects this amendment?
Lord Sassoon | 722 c96GC (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Turnbull, for pointing that out. I do not accept the analysis ...
Lord Turnbull | 722 c96GC (Link to this contribution) May I respond to the noble Lord, Lord Myners? He talked about not restricting the OBR’s ability to c...
Lord Barnett | 722 c95GC (Link to this contribution) The noble Lord now seems to be saying that the OBR can already do the job that the amendments are su...
Lord Sassoon | 722 c95GC (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to the noble Lord and I confirm what he said about the broad purposes and the general ...
Lord Myners | 722 c95GC (Link to this contribution) May I briefly beg the noble Lord’s indulgence one last time? I take great comfort from what he says ...
Baroness Browning | 722 c94GC (Link to this contribution) Does my noble friend recall the concern expressed by the Treasury Committee when Sir Alan Budd appea...
Lord Sassoon | 722 c94GC (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to my noble friend for reminding us that the OBR should be set a focused mandate. It i...
Lord Myners | 722 c94GC (Link to this contribution) Barely an hour ago, the Minister was telling the House that the OBR report had broken new ground in ...
Lord Sassoon | 722 c94-5GC (Link to this contribution) I think that some noble Lords want to have it every which way. The fact is that within the mandate t...
Baroness Noakes | 722 c92GC (Link to this contribution) I have been listening to what my noble friend has been saying. He seems to be saying that we cannot ...
Lord Peston | 722 c92-3GC (Link to this contribution) Before the Minister rises, I shall raise a point of order. I was under the impression that, when we ...
Lord Myners | 722 c93GC (Link to this contribution) I quite recently sat in the chair in which the Minister is sitting and my experience is that the fav...
Lord Sassoon | 722 c93-4GC (Link to this contribution) First of all, of course I take everything that is being raised this afternoon extremely seriously, b...
Lord Barnett | 722 c91-2GC (Link to this contribution) The Minister asked us to withdraw our amendments, so I hope that the noble Baroness will forgive me ...
Subjects
Audit Fiscal policy Economic situation Economic policy Forecasts Public expenditure Parliamentary scrutiny Public finance Office for Budget Responsibility
Legislation
Budget Responsibility and National Audit Bill (HL) 2010-12
Link
View this Parliamentary proceeding on www.publications.parliament.uk