e-petition debate on Monday, 30 January 2017, in the House of Commons, led by Catherine McKinnell. The answering members were Philip Dunne and Justin Madders.

Agenda for Change: NHS Pay Restraint

Motion that this House has considered e-petition 168127 relating to pay restraint for Agenda for Change NHS staff. Agreed to on question. Sitting adjourned without Question put.

Secondary information

Type: Parliamentary proceeding
Reference: 620 cc213-246WH
Session: 2016-17
Department: Department of Health
Chamber / Committee: Westminster Hall
Related items: Pay restraint for Agenda for Change NHS staff
Friday, 27 January 2017
Research briefings
Proceeding contributions: Catherine McKinnell | 620 c213WH (Link to this contribution)
I beg to move,
That this House has considered e-petition 168127 relating to pay restraint f...; Wes Streeting | 620 c213WH (Link to this contribution)
Danielle Tiplady is one of my constituents, and I am proud that she started the petition. The Roy...; Catherine McKinnell | 620 c214WH (Link to this contribution)
I absolutely agree. It is hard to emphasise enough my support for people working across the NHS i...; Nick Thomas-Symonds | 620 c214WH (Link to this contribution)
The way to show respect for our nurses and other NHS staff is to act now to remove the cap, as ha...; Catherine McKinnell | 620 c214WH (Link to this contribution)
My hon. Friend makes an important point. It is not enough for us to state our support for our NHS...; Norman Lamb | 620 c214WH (Link to this contribution)
I agree with the points that the hon. Lady has made. Does she agree that, given the shortage of a...; Catherine McKinnell | 620 c214WH (Link to this contribution)
I very much share the right hon. Gentleman’s concerns. He anticipates some of the points that I w...; Lord Spellar | 620 c214WH (Link to this contribution)
Are we not in danger of getting into a downward spiral? Staff feel stretched, undervalued and und...; Catherine McKinnell | 620 c214WH (Link to this contribution)
My right hon. Friend puts his point very succinctly and absolutely correctly.; George Howarth | 620 c214WH (Link to this contribution)
I hesitate to interrupt my hon. Friend, because she is making such a good case, but does she agre...; Catherine McKinnell | 620 c215WH (Link to this contribution)
My right hon. Friend is absolutely right. It is also a false economy to lose professionals, given...; Andrew Smith | 620 c215WH (Link to this contribution)
My hon. Friend is making an excellent speech. Is it not perverse that the Conservative party seem...; Catherine McKinnell | 620 c215WH (Link to this contribution)
My right hon. Friend makes an important point. There was a two-year pay freeze from 2011-12 and a...; Philip Hollobone | 620 c215WH (Link to this contribution)
I congratulate the hon. Lady on her excellent speech, which I am following closely. Is there not ...; Catherine McKinnell | 620 c216WH (Link to this contribution)
The hon. Gentleman makes an incredibly powerful point, which I hope the Minister has heard.; Lady Hermon | 620 c216WH (Link to this contribution)
I congratulate the hon. Lady on leading this debate, despite the other debates going on elsewhere...; Catherine McKinnell | 620 c216WH (Link to this contribution)
I thank the hon. Lady for that intervention—I think that many of us are surprised that we agree s...; Richard Fuller | 620 c216WH (Link to this contribution)
I add my congratulations to the hon. Lady on securing this important debate. She has somewhat mov...; Catherine McKinnell | 620 cc216-7WH (Link to this contribution)
The hon. Gentleman raises some important points. I would never admit to having strayed into the s...; Andrew Selous | 620 c217WH (Link to this contribution)
Does the hon. Lady agree that the physical demands of nursing, as a family member who worked as a...; Catherine McKinnell | 620 c217WH (Link to this contribution)
I very much agree. That is a factor right across the NHS and the social care sector, and it is an...; Dan Poulter | 620 c217WH (Link to this contribution)
I congratulate the hon. Lady on her speech; I agree with a number of the points she has made. On ...; Catherine McKinnell | 620 cc217-8WH (Link to this contribution)
The hon. Gentleman makes an important point, which is why it is important that staff under Agenda...; Dan Poulter | 620 c218WH (Link to this contribution)
The hon. Lady makes a good point about bursaries. Most nurses enter the profession in their late ...; Catherine McKinnell | 620 cc218-9WH (Link to this contribution)
The hon. Gentleman makes another valid point. I hope that the Minister is listening, because alth...; Rupa Huq | 620 c219WH (Link to this contribution)
My hon. Friend is making a powerful speech. Does she share the concerns of the London nurses at t...; Catherine McKinnell | 620 cc219-221WH (Link to this contribution)
Yes, I share those concerns, particularly about the significant shortage of nurses in London. The...; Mark Durkan | 620 cc220-2WH (Link to this contribution)
It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Evans. It is a particular pleasure to follo...; Jim Cunningham | 620 c222WH (Link to this contribution)
On the pay freeze, over the past five or six years it has worked out to roughly the equivalent of...; Mark Durkan | 620 cc222-3WH (Link to this contribution)
I agree with all of the hon. Gentleman’s points; they touch on points made in interventions by ot...; Nigel Evans | 620 c223WH (Link to this contribution)
I call Dr Philippa Whitford.; Philippa Whitford | 620 c223WH (Link to this contribution)
I thought I would be called to speak at the end.; Nigel Evans | 620 c223WH (Link to this contribution)
No Members indicated that they wished to speak by standing in their place, but I can be flexible,...; Philippa Whitford | 620 c223WH (Link to this contribution)
Yes; I would expect to speak at the end, if other Members wish to speak.; Andy Burnham | 620 c223WH (Link to this contribution)
rose—; Nigel Evans | 620 c223WH (Link to this contribution)
I call Andy Burnham.
5.9 pm; Andy Burnham | 620 cc223-4WH (Link to this contribution)
Thank you, Mr Evans. I also thank the SNP spokesperson. I had not intended to speak but will grab...; Stephen Timms | 620 c224WH (Link to this contribution)
I agree with the points that my right hon. Friend is making. The RCN has told us that the pay of ...; Andy Burnham | 620 c224WH (Link to this contribution)
My hon. Friend the Member for Foyle (Mark Durkan) said that this is a pay cut. We should not call...; Mary Glindon | 620 c224WH (Link to this contribution)
Further to what my right hon. Friend just said, does he agree that there is a culture under this ...; Andy Burnham | 620 c224WH (Link to this contribution)
That is how it begins to appear. The Government are pushing people beyond their limits. There was...; Dan Poulter | 620 c224WH (Link to this contribution)
The right hon. Gentleman is making some very fair points. I hope he recognises that one of the fi...; Andy Burnham | 620 c225WH (Link to this contribution)
I am glad to hear the intervention of the former Minister, whom I worked well with in the previou...; Jim Cunningham | 620 c225WH (Link to this contribution)
My right hon. Friend makes an interesting point. It can be a false economy to rely on agencies to...; Andy Burnham | 620 c225WH (Link to this contribution)
It is not only a false economy; it directly damages the quality of patient care. When people arri...; Rupa Huq | 620 c225WH (Link to this contribution)
My right hon. Friend makes a powerful point about the lack of continuity with agency staff coming...; Andy Burnham | 620 cc225-6WH (Link to this contribution)
My hon. Friend makes two important points. The first was on the effect that Home Office immigrati...; Chris Stephens | 620 c226WH (Link to this contribution)
Is there not a wider economic point that if we keep pay freezes in place for so long—six years—th...; Andy Burnham | 620 cc226-7WH (Link to this contribution)
Of course, and the point is very well made, but I will also say again that it does not help defic...; Nigel Evans | 620 c227WH (Link to this contribution)
There being no one else standing in their place, we will move to the winding-up speeches.
5...; Philippa Whitford | 620 cc227-8WH (Link to this contribution)
It is an honour to serve under you, Mr Evans.
We seem to have been in this place before. We...; Lady Hermon | 620 c228WH (Link to this contribution)
On the hon. Lady’s point about how difficult and wearisome the work of a nurse is—it is hard work...; Philippa Whitford | 620 cc228-9WH (Link to this contribution)
The whole message that is sent by nurses, particularly those who are in their late 50s and approa...; Justin Madders | 620 cc229-230WH (Link to this contribution)
It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Evans. I congratulate my hon. Friend the Me...; Andy Burnham | 620 c230WH (Link to this contribution)
My hon. Friend has just mentioned people feeling a sense of fairness, particularly in the pay of ...; Justin Madders | 620 c230WH (Link to this contribution)
I agree entirely. We all know—it is well documented—the financial pressures that the health servi...; Lilian Greenwood | 620 c230WH (Link to this contribution)
Important as nurses are as the backbone of our health service, many other NHS staff are affected ...; Justin Madders | 620 cc230-3WH (Link to this contribution)
My hon. Friend has encapsulated the challenge we always face when a service is privatised. Most o...; Rupa Huq | 620 c231WH (Link to this contribution)
At the weekend, on the doorstep, I met my constituent Dr Linda Burke, who is pro vice-chancellor ...; Justin Madders | 620 cc231-4WH (Link to this contribution)
I am glad to hear that my hon. Friend is out on the doorstep on a Saturday morning, but sorry tha...; Lilian Greenwood | 620 c234WH (Link to this contribution)
That is precisely the point that one of my constituents, a nurse, made when she wrote to me. She ...; Justin Madders | 620 cc234-5WH (Link to this contribution)
Yes. It is sad to hear that someone who has only just started out in the profession is being grou...; Philip Dunne | 620 cc235-6WH (Link to this contribution)
Mr Evans, I am grateful to you for calling me to wind up the debate. It is a pleasure to serve un...; Rupa Huq | 620 c236WH (Link to this contribution)
The Minister is giving figures for the current workforce, but does he have any for the future wor...; Philip Dunne | 620 c236WH (Link to this contribution)
I can say to the hon. Lady that there are 51,000 nurses in training today—I cannot tell her wheth...; Philippa Whitford | 620 c237WH (Link to this contribution)
Will the right hon. Gentleman give way?; Philip Dunne | 620 c237WH (Link to this contribution)
I will, although I am not actually right honourable.; Philippa Whitford | 620 c237WH (Link to this contribution)
Honourable but not right—I accept that. The figures from NHS England itself suggest a drop in nur...; Philip Dunne | 620 c237WH (Link to this contribution)
The hon. Lady must have access to figures that my Department and I do not have. My information is...; Dan Poulter | 620 c237WH (Link to this contribution)
The Minister is right to highlight the increases in many staff numbers across the NHS. He will al...; Philip Dunne | 620 c237WH (Link to this contribution)
I will come on to agencies shortly. I am not denying that there are vacancies within the NHS, but...; Lady Hermon | 620 c237WH (Link to this contribution)
I have listened very carefully to the Minister, but I have to tell him that nursing staff, midwiv...; Philip Dunne | 620 c238WH (Link to this contribution)
Obviously I cannot speak about circumstances in Northern Ireland, because we do not have responsi...; Lady Hermon | 620 c238WH (Link to this contribution)
rose—; Philip Dunne | 620 c238WH (Link to this contribution)
I will make some progress.
We recognise that the NHS faces a number of very challenging pre...; Justin Madders | 620 c238WH (Link to this contribution)
Will the Minister give way?; Philip Dunne | 620 c238WH (Link to this contribution)
I will first answer, if I may, some of the comments made about the NHS Pay Review Body’s recommen...; Justin Madders | 620 c239WH (Link to this contribution)
The Minister talks about respecting the independent NHS Pay Review Body’s recommendations. Withou...; Philip Dunne | 620 c239WH (Link to this contribution)
The hon. Gentleman will not be surprised to hear that I cannot give him any reassurances on that....; Philippa Whitford | 620 c239WH (Link to this contribution)
Looking at the graph going forward, however, those on bands 1 and 2 of Agenda for Change will fal...; Philip Dunne | 620 c239WH (Link to this contribution)
Once again, the hon. Lady is speculating about what might happen in future, and I am afraid that ...; Mark Durkan | 620 c239WH (Link to this contribution)
Just to clarify, like the hon. Member for Central Ayrshire (Dr Whitford), I was referring to the ...; Philippa Whitford | 620 c239WH (Link to this contribution)
rose—; Roger Gale | 620 c239WH (Link to this contribution)
Order. You cannot take one intervention following another intervention. I call the Minister to sp...; Philip Dunne | 620 c239WH (Link to this contribution)
I am very happy to give way to the hon. Lady.; Philippa Whitford | 620 c239WH (Link to this contribution)
I was basing my assumptions and suppositions on what the Government themselves announced when the...; Philip Dunne | 620 c239WH (Link to this contribution)
I have made the Government’s current position clear and we will have to see what emerges from the...; Philippa Whitford | 620 c239WH (Link to this contribution)
Why?; Philip Dunne | 620 c240WH (Link to this contribution)
Because I have been very clear that at the moment nobody will be paid less than the national livi...; Dan Poulter | 620 c240WH (Link to this contribution)
On the current position, can my hon. Friend clarify what the average annual increase in pay in re...; Philip Dunne | 620 c240WH (Link to this contribution)
I will come to that point. If my hon. Friend will bear with me for a few minutes, I think I will ...; Lady Hermon | 620 c240WH (Link to this contribution)
Will the Minister give way?; Philip Dunne | 620 c240WH (Link to this contribution)
No, I am afraid I am going to make some progress.
Hon. Members need to recognise that there...; Justin Madders | 620 c240WH (Link to this contribution)
We are very clear that we believe that the recommendations of the independent NHS Pay Review Body...; Philip Dunne | 620 c240WH (Link to this contribution)
I am not sure that that provides much clarification, but I thank the hon. Gentleman for having a ...; Dan Poulter | 620 c240WH (Link to this contribution)
I specifically asked about those who are at the top of the Agenda for Change pay scale, which man...; Philip Dunne | 620 c241WH (Link to this contribution)
They do, and it is important for hon. Members to understand the impact of incremental pay rises. ...; Catherine McKinnell | 620 c241WH (Link to this contribution)
rose—; Dan Poulter | 620 c241WH (Link to this contribution)
rose—; Philip Dunne | 620 c241WH (Link to this contribution)
I will make a little progress, if I may.
NHS organisations spend about two thirds of their ...; Dan Poulter | 620 c241WH (Link to this contribution)
My hon. Friend the Minister may not have the answer to my specific question here today, but will ...; Philip Dunne | 620 c241WH (Link to this contribution)
I will be happy to look at that; if my hon. Friend would write to me with his precise question, o...; Catherine McKinnell | 620 c241WH (Link to this contribution)
Will the Minister give way?; Philip Dunne | 620 c241WH (Link to this contribution)
I was about to come on to agencies, but I will give way to the hon. Lady.; Catherine McKinnell | 620 c241WH (Link to this contribution)
I thank the Minister for giving way. I am slightly concerned by his response, in that he does not...; Philip Dunne | 620 c241WH (Link to this contribution)
The hon. Lady refers to ambulance staff. In recent weeks—just before Christmas, in fact—the Depar...; Lady Hermon | 620 c242WH (Link to this contribution)
Will the Minister give way?; Philip Dunne | 620 c242WH (Link to this contribution)
No. The hon. Lady has had a fair crack. I will make a bit more progress.
I was challenged i...; Philippa Whitford | 620 c242WH (Link to this contribution)
Certainly the nurses I met during the lobby here, who had come from all over England, but particu...; Philip Dunne | 620 c243WH (Link to this contribution)
I have already explained to the hon. Lady that we have a London weighting, which reflects the inc...; Philippa Whitford | 620 c243WH (Link to this contribution)
indicated dissent.; Philip Dunne | 620 c243WH (Link to this contribution)
If not her, then another hon. Member referred to it, and that is from the latest available workfo...; Lord Elliott of Ballinamallard | 620 c243WH (Link to this contribution)
The Minister has outlined the pay and conditions package—or part of it. Does he believe that staf...; Philip Dunne | 620 cc243-4WH (Link to this contribution)
I have tried to indicate in my remarks that we do not undervalue anyone who works in the NHS. The...; Catherine McKinnell | 620 cc244-6WH (Link to this contribution)
I do not think that anyone could argue with what the Minister has just said about NHS staff being...
Subjects: Conditions of employment NHS Pay Recruitment Staff Pay settlements NHS Pay Review Body
Link: View this Parliamentary proceeding on hansard.parliament.uk

Agenda for Change: NHS Pay Restraint

Secondary information

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