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Terrorism Bill

My Lords, it may be something of an understatement to describe the previous speech as intriguing, but I shall leave it to the Minister as I do not have an answer to those questions. For many years I have not been alone in struggling with the difficult question of how to confront and defeat terrorism, while at the same time defend our civil liberties and protect the rights of minorities who get caught in the net and become easy recruits for terrorism, wherever it may be. I am not alone in having been through that, and all of us from time to time have adjusted our positions. An important message to give to people outside is that the Bill is not internment, which locked up thousands of people without a release date being set, judicial input, or the police or security services having to record the interviews either by audio or visual means. Exactly the same applies to the Prevention of Terrorism Act as it was in the 1980s and early 1990s. Then, up to 6,000 people a year were being detained for seven days without access even to a solicitor, never mind a judge, and were being held without access to the audio or visual tapes that are now kept by the police. Incidentally, that is where some of the wrongful convictions to which the noble Lord, Lord Hurd, referred came from. Indeed, one of them was of a person known to me in the Guildford case when I was a probation officer. She was held under that provision and released. The fascinating thing about her was that she was held for seven days without access to a solicitor. At the beginning of those seven days, she was denying that she had committed the offence; at the end, she was admitting it. That is not because she was brutally treated; as she would concede and has said since, she was a confused and mixed-up young girl on drugs and was therefore easily caught in that sort of net. The other thing that it is important to understand is that we began to get more sophisticated in our handling of the Prevention of Terrorism Act, in particular, but also internment. I was never in my career the chairman of the 1922 Committee, so I cannot be too sure of my facts here, but I suspect that both the noble and learned Lord, Lord Mayhew, who will speak next and, possibly, the noble Lord, Lord Hurd, knew that the numbers that we were pulling in under the Prevention of Terrorism Act and internment were providing easy recruits for the paramilitaries. At its height, the use of exclusion orders under the Prevention of Terrorism Act totalled about 250 people a year excluded from one part of the United Kingdom to another. In my view, later supported by the noble Viscount, Lord Colville, in his report on the Prevention of Terrorism Act, that constituted internal exile—something that we had not had since the days of Henry VIII. So we must watch our language: things have changed dramatically for the better. That is why many of us have been able to consider things differently now. I am sad to have to say this, but I say to the noble Lord, Lord McNally, that he is very unwise to have adduced the position of the Liberal Party, because throughout the 1980s, when the party wanted to position itself to the Right of the Labour Party politically, it supported both those Acts without any of the safeguards that we now have. Now that, for what I regard as rather daft political reasons, the party wants to position itself to the Left of us, they are opposed to the Bill. That is a classic case of what people expect in this country: the Tory Party to drive on the Right, the Labour Party to drive on the Left and the Liberals again saying that it is entirely an optional matter which side of the road to drive on, it depends on the weather. That is not a very sensible stance. As the noble Lord, Lord Carlile, for whose comments I shall wait with some interest, said, and in my view thanks to the final few years of the Conservative Government under John Major and to the present Government, Britain now has more protection for defendants than most other countries. I say to the noble Baroness, Lady Williams, that the United States is about the worst model that we can follow. At present, the United States tries to catch people outside its jurisdiction and hold them out there. That is unacceptable.