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Government of Wales Bill

This is not a trivia quiz; it is a serious proposition. If this is the first referendum that we givethe people in Wales, the hon. Gentleman ought to welcome it. His Government believed in offering referendums when it suited them, but when it does not suit them, they do not permit the people to have a voice. Let us deal with the principle of a referendum. The Government are clearly not averse to referendums. The Bill allows for a referendum prior to full legislative powers being devolved to the Assembly. I hope Labour Members agree that there is no objection in principle to a referendum. I assume they have no objection and will support the referendum offered in part 4. On Second Reading the Secretary of State gave the impression that he thought the question as to whether to grant interim powers by Orders in Council was too complex to be put to the people in Wales. If that is the case, it is appalling that the Government do not consider the electorate sufficiently intelligent to understand what they are proposing for Wales, and that they should not be consulted. A referendum at this point would ensure that resources were used to promulgate the work of the Assembly. It is the Secretary of State who is afraid that any referendum at this stage would be lost. I hate to remind the Minister that the Secretary of State said:"““Rhodri and I and Welsh Labour are not in the business of calling referendums we are going to lose””." His fear is robbing the people of Wales of both information and choice. There we have it; referendums are all right in principle. The Labour Government will hold a referendum, but only if it suits them, and certainly not a referendum that may suit the people of Wales.