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Government of Wales Bill

The amendments refer once again to the position of the House of Lords in relation to proposals in the Bill, so I do not want to detain the Committee unduly. There are proponents of bicameralism and of unicameralism, but what the Bill seems to propose throughout is tricameralism. There are sets of proposals whereby measures such as demands for a referendum or any changes in the competency of the post-legislative powers of the National Assembly would still have to go through three hoops: the Assembly, the House of Commons and the Chamber down the Corridor. That is not acceptable to my party, nor probably—privately—to many democrats on the Labour Benches. As some Members of the Assembly have said, it is almost as though we are returning to the dark days of the Poynings law when the Irish Parliament had to send its proposals to Westminster for approval. On several occasions, Catholic Members of the Upper House who came to Westminster to support those proposals ended up in the tower. I am not suggesting that that would happen nowadays, either under the Labour Government or a future Government of another hue. I reiterate the point that we have made throughout proceedings on the Bill: it is unacceptable for the democratic wish of the national representative institution of the people of Wales to be frustrated by an unelected Chamber. Self-government is ours by right. We have a right to self-determination; it is not something that should be doled out through the largesse of an unelected institution. Therefore, we argue that the House of Lords has no proper role—certainly not after an affirmative vote by the people of Wales to set up a properly constituted law-making Parliament. We therefore ask the Government to remove the House of Lords from that role. As Lord Livsey has said, such a role could fan the flames of Welsh nationalism—so perhaps arguing against that could be contrary to our own interests if that interpretation is correct. If the House of Lords ever frustrates the democratic wishes of the Welsh people, it would certainly lead to a constitutional crisis, and I am sure that the Secretary of State would not want that to happen.