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Terrorism Bill

My Lords, I shall endeavour to ensure that my noble friend Lady Scotland receives the paeans of unadulterated praise that have rained on us this afternoon as a consequence of our bringing forward these amendments. I am genuinely grateful for all the help that we have had. It was never the Government’s intention to capture the innocent activity of librarians, as I am sure all Members of your Lordships’ House would accept. However, we have been pleased to try to make progress in ensuring that the legislation is more accurately and precisely drafted, so that it does not have any unintended consequences. For that reason, if no other, I think that this exercise has been very useful. My noble friend Lord Eatwell has understandably asked for further points of clarification. I am more than happy to try to give him further assurance on the effect of Clause 2, as it now stands, on the work of libraries and librarians; I am happy to put our further thoughts on record. The Government are clear that the offence in Clause 2—with intent and subjective recklessness—will not have the effects that some of your Lordships had feared. It will not force libraries to stop activities that we would all, I am sure, regard as legitimate and it will not force copyright libraries to desist from activities that they are legally bound to carry out. Nothing in the Bill will prevent the British Library carrying out its statutory functions under the British Library Act 1972, in particular maintaining the comprehensive collection that it is required to maintain by Section 1(1) of that Act. Nor does the Bill contain any provisions that would hinder the operation of the Legal Deposit Libraries Act 2003, including the British Library’s automatic receipt of a copy of every work published in print. It is clear that such works must be deposited at the British Library without the library having to request them in advance, although even if the library had to request them in advance, that would not present any difficulties with regard to Clause 2 of the Bill. In addition, Clause 2 does not present any hindrance whatever to the British Library in maintaining a collection of on-line publications that is representative of this medium. It has never been the Government’s intention that these possible consequences should ever have happened, nor, I believe, has the offence ever been drafted in such a way that they would have happened. The fact that we have now inserted intent and subjective recklessness should remove any lingering doubts on this issue. Having given the House that general assurance, I should like to explain in a little more detail why any specific provision relating to the copyright libraries would be unnecessary. First, the offence in Clause 2 does not place any new obligation on libraries to examine the publications that they obtain or possess. It will therefore not be the case that if a library does not know the contents of a publication it could be prosecuted under this offence. Secondly, it is now necessary for the prosecution to show that anyone charged with this offence committed it through either intent or subjective recklessness. If someone disseminates a terrorist publication with the intention that it should come into the hands of someone who would be encouraged by it to commit terrorist acts, such a person should be guilty of an offence. If someone disseminates a terrorist publication knowing that this will happen, or knowingly takes an unreasonable risk that it would, they too should be prosecuted. These points should be acceptable with regard to libraries and librarians. Obviously if they commit the offence with intent they should be prosecuted, but even with regard to recklessness there is no problem. Libraries and librarians are under no obligation to examine publications more than they would otherwise have done. They are not obliged to examine the people to whom they make the publications available more than they would otherwise have done. So I do not see how, in the ordinary course of events, they could be said to be subjectively reckless in disseminating them. Even when they know that a text has the potential to encourage terrorism, for example, if they are alerted to that possibility by its title or reputation, to be subjectively reckless they would still have to know that they were taking an unreasonable risk in lending it to a particular individual. If the librarian did not know that a publication was likely to encourage terrorism, or if they did not know that a person seeking to borrow it was likely to be susceptible to such encouragement, they could never be convicted of the offence because they would not have knowingly taken an unreasonable risk. They could therefore not be subjectively reckless. As we have explained, they are under no extra obligation to examine either publications or borrowers. I hope that those reassurances are sufficient to end any concerns that your Lordships may have had about the possible effects of Clause 2 on libraries. Responding to the reflections of the noble Baroness, Lady Williams, at an earlier stage in the Bill, of course the Bill allows for the seizure of terrorist publications, but there is no intention to seize material from deposit libraries or other legitimate libraries. What is more, the amendment made on Report to Schedule 2 ensures that in the highly unlikely event of an inappropriate seizure the material can more easily be returned. I hope that reassures the noble Baroness. I think that we have now come to a reasonable accommodation. I hope that the further assurances that I have given to the noble Lord, Lord Eatwell, more than suffice; and I trust that I have answered the point understandably raised by the noble Baroness, Lady Williams. We do not want to alarm librarians, but we need to have clarity on the way in which the law operates. I am grateful to all noble Lords who have been concerned about this part of the Bill. On Question, amendment agreed to.